unknown woman

jill
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unknown woman

This photo (that I don't think I have uploaded to Gwulo) was originally in the collection of Cicely Warren as a negative and given to my cousin Brian Lewis to be developed. It was in the same batch as the photo titled "Olson brothers" that I have previously uploaded. The terrace seems to be the same but the arrangement of the pots is different and the floor seems more worn, so perhaps it was taken at a later date. Sean Olson thought that the woman was Elizabeth Olson but I can't see the resemblance to the other photos of Elizabeth. Unfortunately there are no hills visible in the background to help us with the location.

olson brothers, by jill

 

Date picture taken
1910s
Tags
Olson
Gallery
1910s-40s Warren family's photos

Comments

Thanks to recent research by moddsey and eurasian_david, we now know that this photo and other Olson family photos on the same terrace with the flagpole behind were taken at 98a Wanchai Road before the death of old John Olson in 1918. Unfortunately I am no nearer to finding out the identity of the woman in the photograph.

Unfortunately I don't think the lady on the terrace is the QBS teacher of 1931-32. The photo was taken around 1916-17. We don't know all the friends of the Olsons. She could be an early girlfriend of Charles Olson or a godmother of one of the Olson/Warnes children. Thank you for the thought!

The photo was in the same batch as the Olson brothers. The photo is the same location (98A Wanchai Road). This location is where John Olson senior lived. Fair to say this person would be an Olson or a close family friend of the Olsons. She actually does look like Elizabeth Ann Olson (1882-1917) based on the photo from The Hong Kong Legacy website. Jill, do you have other photo(s) of Elizabeth Ann Olson? And...what was her cause of death? 

Possible Elizabeth Ann Olson match, by eurasian_david

N'est-ce-pas?


EDIT in retrospect: Apologies to Sean for nicking the photo from his website without permission - if David Bellis, Jill or Sean want it removed, of course please do.

I agree with you, David. Elizabeth's teeth were very distinctive. Elizabeth died of throat cancer in 1917. The younger photo is from the wedding of Annie Olson's sister Clara in 1910. I'm going to send you privately a photo cropped from a family portrait of the Warnes family that must have been taken around 1911 when Cyril was a toddler and the same year that the older Olsons moved to Wanchai Road. The photo was sent to me by Iris Warnes's granddaughter and is not for wider publication. You will see why I found it difficult to say that the young woman in the family portrait is the same as the Elizabeth shown at Clara's wedding a year earlier, nor the woman on the 98a Wanchai Road terrace. It's difficult to know what date that or the photo of the Olson brothers was taken. The brothers look quite young in the photo. John (on the right?) is shown with a moustache in an early family portrait elsewhere. In the meantime I will include a photo of Elizabeth from our collection, date unknown, that I've already uploaded to Gwulo and that tallies with an Olson photo taken on the same occasion and that Sean identified as being of Elizabeth. 

Elizabeth Warnes 2.jpg, by jill

Okay. Lots to unpack but I've figured it out.

Short answer: Lots of mistakes. We are actually dealing with 3 completely different women. 

This 'unknown woman' is not Elizabeth Ann Olson.  

And Elizabeth Warnes is not Elizabeth Warnes.

Too tired to explain atm. Will have to wait.

Thanks David. The only photo that is definitely of Elizabeth is the one that I sent you privately. That's the only one taken with her children and has been passed down from generation to generation. The other lady must have been significant to our family as photos of her were preserved by both Olsons and Warrens. Will be interested to hear your thoughts in due course.

Elizabeth Ann Olson 

Yes, Jill, that studio photo you sent me of the young woman with a boy toddler is…definitely Elizabeth Ann Warnes (née Olson).

  1. She is sat lovingly supporting her son Cyril Warnes
  2. She looks Eurasian
  3. She looks like a sister of her siblings John, Ellen and Charles 

She does not look like the other 2 women: “Unknown woman” and “Elizabeth Warnes” both of whom look Caucasian. 

Cyril Warnes looks older than 1 year but younger than 3 years. Given it is a formal studio portrait, it probably was done to tie in with him coming to the age of 2 years. Thus the photo is c.1911-12. 

I had to see the so-called photo of ‘Elizabeth Ann Olson’ at Clara’s wedding in October 1910 because I really doubted it would be her. And it turned out that it was the very same photo that was used in Sean’s website of Hong Kong Legacy labeling her as Elizabeth Ann Olson, and which I have since shown was the very same woman as the “unknown woman” at the 98A Wanchai Road rooftop photo. 

It’s elegantly simple. 

The wedding of Clara Mary Beatrice Moore took place on 8th October 1910 in Singapore. Elizabeth Ann Olson was either heavily pregnant on the cusp of giving birth or had just given birth to her son Cyril (born 1910) with a neonate/infant to look after. And let’s not forget she was by then the mother of 3 young children, age 4 years and under. What were the chances of her traveling from Hong Kong to Singapore to attend a wedding that was not a blood relation? 

 

“Elizabeth Warnes” 

Now we know what Elizabeth Ann Warnes (née Olson) really looked like, we can clearly see that photos labeled as “Elizabeth Warnes” are not her. 

Who was she then? She is Dorothy Dransfield.

dorothy dransfield, by eurasian_david

In the one known photo of Dorothy Dransfield taken with the Warrens at Stanley Beach, I have sandwiched that picture of her with those of the so-called “Elizabeth Warnes”. All have the same thin-lipped closed smile and petite slender body. It’s uncanny isn’t it? That’s because all 3 photos are of the same young lady.

Also, the photos of the so called “Elizabeth Warnes” show a petite, thin, slim young lady with very narrow hips – not exactly the hips of a mother who had given birth to 3 children. Hips widen after pregnancy, especially after multiple pregnancies. 

 

“Unknown woman” 

Now, if we place both Dorothy Dransfield and the “Unknown Woman” side-by-side, you can see they both look facially different and have a different body frame; one petite and slender, and the other wider from shoulder to pelvis.

dorothy dransfield and unknown woman, by eurasian_david

By a remarkable coincidence, both ladies have a slightly lower-sloping right shoulder and a higher more-level left shoulder, with the right hand slightly below the level of the left hand. It could be leg length discrepancy but more likely idiopathic scoliosis – a lateral curvature (with slight rotation) of the spine. Prevalence is about 2-3 % in the British population and more common in females.  

So who was this “Unknown woman”?

Possible Elizabeth Ann Olson match, by eurasian_david

She was standing next to Charles William Olson at the wedding of Clara Moore in Singapore October 1910 and she was standing on the roof of 98A Wanchai Road, Hong Kong – where Charles also resided. So the key link is single Charles William Olson – perhaps a friend? Why was she at the wedding of Clara Moore in Singapore? She won’t be particularly linked with John Olson as he was married to Annie Louisa and they had 2 boys! 

Locate Charles Olson and you will find the name of this “unknown lady”.

“On Saturday last, at St. Andrew’s Cathedral, the wedding of Miss Clara Mary Beatrice Moore, eldest daughter of the late Mr. James Andrew Moore, of the I.M. Customs, China, and Mr. Charles Hawkswell Rowe, fourth son of Mr. Harry Rowe, of Grays, Essex, was celebrated by Archdeacon H.C. Izard. Mr. N.H. Collins, acted as best man, and Miss E.A. Mills took the part of bridesmaid, while Mr. W.H. Moore, brother of the bride, gave his sister away. After the ceremony a good number of friends of both the bride and bridegroom assembled at the Masonic Hall, where a reception was held”

Source: The Straits Budget, page 1, 13th October 1910

Was she the bridesmaid Miss E.A. Mills? 

So, we need a guest list of the wedding of Clara Moore in Singapore – do you have that? Do we need to trawl though Singaporean newspapers to get a guest list of the wedding? We also need to locate the passenger lists of the vessels Charles Olson traveled on from Hong Kong to Singapore prior to the wedding and then from Singapore back to Hong Kong after the wedding because this “unknown woman” probably traveled with Charles William Olson. 

The game is afoot…! 

David, I am most grateful that you have set aside so much time to solving the conundrum of "the unknown lady". I am fully convinced of your hypothesis that the photos supposedly of Elizabeth Olson are in fact of Dorothy Dransfield. I am only baffled about how even one photo of Dorothy Dransfield found its way into the Olson collection - let alone "a set". I can only suppose that Ethel Olson, Cicely Warren and Dorothy Dransfield saw each other occasionally. A note from Ethel congratulating Cicely on the birth of one of her children exists. At least they were on friendly terms.

I'm more challenged about discovering the identity of the unknown lady. I'm not very successful in accessing passenger lists. It would be good to find a photo of Miss E.A. Mills, or at least to find out more about her. I don't think that guest lists of weddings were published in the newspapers. More interest centred on what the bride was wearing. Maybe moddsey could help us with Miss E.A. Mills or the passenger lists that you mention. 

It is also surprising that the brother of Clara Burke Moore is named as Mr W.H. Moore and not, as in Sean's account, Patrick William Moore. No wonder Sean failed to track him down. There is a family portrait of John and Annie Olson together with their first three children and also Annie's brother and sister, but I'm not sure if it is in "The Hong Kong Legacy".  I will search for it.

As you say, quite a quest still confronts us .....

I had a quick glance at the wedding of Clara Moore and Charles Rowe in the Straits Times 10 October 1910. No guest list was published. 

Mrs. H. Mills (related to Miss E. A. Mills ???) performed the duties of hostess at the Masonic Hall. The Mills may have been based in Singapore ?

Rowe was connected to the Singapore harbour improvement works that were carried out by Messrs. Sir John Jackson, Ltd.

_______________________________________________________________________________________

Clara Mary Beatrice Rowe died on 22 May 1912, beloved wife of Charles Hawkswell Rowe, Construction Department of F. M. S. Railways, Seremban. The Straits Times of the following day refers. Charles remarried in 1917.

I haven't deep dived into this hypothesis yet but it's definitely worth exploring:

Chas W Olson, by David


Could Miss Mary O'Sullivan be the name of the woman? In the postcard dated 1907 he asked her if she would fancy coming out to the Far East! 

Nice try by the 20 year-old Charles Olson. According to his nephew, Sean, the lady in question was the local butcher's daughter. I think she had her head screwed on. The address given must have been the address of the butcher's shop.

From the appearance of the lady's throat, I would judge that she was a bit older than Charles Olson at the time of the photo. You will have a more accurate opinion than me. Remember also that the photo (as negative) ended up in the Warren collection and not in the Olson collection. Sean would have spotted it otherwise.

Don't do any deep diving in the Irish sea yet! I think the identity of Miss E.A Mills may be worth exploring first.

 

As an aside, the photo was developed by my cousin Brian Lewis, (son of Evelyn Warren) after his visit to Diana in Canada. Diana gave him a package of negatives. Lacking any photos of our grandmother, Hannah Warren, Brian suggested that it was probably her!

Charles Olson's eventual wife, Ethel, was apparently a chambermaid at the London hotel where he was staying a couple of years later than his visit to Dublin. Perhaps he was splashing money around and tipping generously. Ethel succumbed to Charles's charm and seems to have fitted well into Hong  Kong society of the time, as well as helping out with Warren family difficulties.

I mentioned earlier that the "unknown woman" might be a godmother to one of the Olson or Warnes children. I believe the Catholic church use the term "sponsor". The last son of John and Annie Olson was born in 1913 actually at 98a Wanchai Road. His nickname was always "Tubby", but his real name was Charles Stanley Olson. A godmother is usually a close family friend and the date would fit. Unfortunately I don't have the baptismal records of the Olson children, but they are probably available. 

I have now uploaded the details of the three Lesbirel sisters as possible subjects of the initial photograph in this post. This was in the Warren collection and apparently not in the Olson collection, yet eurasian_david has proved that the young woman is the same as the one shown in the threesome with Charles and Nellie Olson at the wedding of Annie Olson's sister, Clara in Singapore. The initial photo was moreover taken on Olson premises at 98a Wanchai Road. It is clear that the Lesbirels were close friends of both the Olsons and the Warrens. Charles Lesbirel, father to the three girls, succeeded John Olson at the National Tavern. Lesbirel's first daughter, Celestina Summers, was sponsor at the baptisms of Charles Warren's two elder children in 1900 and 1902 respectively. Alice and Annie Lesbirel were Celestina's much younger half-sisters by their father's second marriage. Nellie Olson was in the same class as Alice. It's a long shot that the "unknown woman" is a Lesbirel, but it's my best guess. Eurasian_david may be able to guess her age better than I can.