Hi Sean, I'd suggest you contact the family who posted these old pics on Picasa. It appears they were close neighbours 3ith the Warrens on Broadwood Road and it's highly likely C.E. Warren built their home (given his obituary states he built some 20 houses on that road). The same obituary lists Louis Cossart as among those attending the funeral, while the Ladies Directory lists Mrs L Cossart as living at 20 Broadwood Road in 1919.
The only confusing thing is the address - I see the Towers is sometimes given as 20 Broadwood Road but that clashes with these details...
Now here's a mystery. And I'm afraid I am not going to be of much use.
My info regarding Warren comes from the family research carried out by his side of the family.
Until a few years ago I never knew he or his wife existed. My primary interest was in my great grandfather Jons Jakobsson aka John Olson. Warren married his eldest child named Hannah who I also did not know ever existed! Hannah was the child of a previous association with a woman named Kum Yau who either died or left John. We do not know.
I know from Warren research that when Warren's first child was born in 1900 when the 28-year-old Englishman was employed by the Hong Kong Sanitary Department as a Second Class Inspector of Nuisances at a salary of HK$960 per annum. This is recorded in the Hong Kong Blue Book of 1900-1901.
I must also say we know anything of the career of my great grandfather John Olson except for the fact that he declared himself to be a hotelkeeper on the birth certificate of his son John 2, who was my grandfather. That is where I started from.
There were two separate oral traditions relating to what my great grandfather did in Hong Kong.
The first said he was a successful well-off engineer who was responsible for all the drains in Hong Kong, and who also built Happy Valley racecourse. This is related by a first cousin of mine.The second said he was well off, and that he built 21 houses on the Peak. This came from a Warren granddaughter who had not met my cousin with the other story! Both were wrong!
This means that I can't confirm anything about numbers except that "my" side of the family had a home at 13 Broadwood Road. That's in the Juror's list of I think 1927 if memory serves me and certainly they lived there around 1920 as I have pictures which show The Towers further up the hill.
From Warren research I can tell you that in 1913 Charles Warren and Co bought two lots of land at auction for HK$7100. On the second lot it was, according to the South China Morning Post, “the intention of Messrs Warren and Co., Sanitary Engineers, tile makers etc., to build…a modern tile factory, equipped with up-to- date plant, in extension of the factory which they built a few years ago and which has already become inadequate for their business”. The second lot was at Wongneichong Road overlooking Happy Valley Racecourse, which later became Broadwood Road.
That house was The Towers and was built and finished around 1917. But whether it was number 20 or not I don't know. I also believe there was also a bungalow in the grounds.
There was a huge family split between 1918 and 1923 which goes some way to explaining the lack of info. Have a scan through www.thehongkonglegacy.com if you are interested.
Sorry to go on so long but it is very interesting to find another link. Have left a message on the Picasa site. So will see what happens.
Interesting stuff; I think one of his greatest achievements was developing what was known as the Ridge but basically was the spine of the hill above Happy Valley and connected by Broadwood Road. I would hazard a guess that 20 Broadwood Road is the building on the ridge to the right of the Towers as seen here: https://picasaweb.google.com/olsonone/LifeAndTimesInHongKong#5084034253912578738 If you zoom in the more modern style seems to be similar to the photo above. Be great to hear what comes of the connection to the family who lived there and attended his funeral.
Think you might well be right about the house in the picture above The Towers. Am sure that the house marked as The Towers is the right one as it was done on a postcard in 1923!
The Ridge is a new one on me. My understanding from Warren records I have seen is that he bought the land where The Towers was and built it and a bungalow. Nothing else. Don't know anything about The Ridge I'm afraid. My interest is the Olson side of the family and, as there was such a big split way back when in which I suspect both sides played a full part, his life and career are pretty peripheral to my interest.
Have had a preliminary email from the No 20 picture person. Will see where that leads.
Hi, it's from his obituary in the Hong Kong Daily Press: `He will be remembered also as the pioneer of building enterprise on 'The Ridge,' overlooking the Racecourse at Happy Valley. Upwards of twenty houses there, were built by him, and he presided in a very spacious and, in many respects, very remarkable residence known as 'The Towers.'
Incidentally Broadwood Road appears to have been named after Major General RG Broadwood, commanding officer of the troops and left Hong Kong in 1910.
Saw that in the obit as well. As a retired journo I don't always believe what I read! Also if this is correct why does it not appear in the Warren family research that I have seen? Could well be right but it is something of a mystery.
Also C.E.Warren was set up to provide sanitary ware, bathroom stuff and tiles and marble. They were also monumental masons making gravestones - I can see their mark in pictures of my great grandmother's grave. Also they had some sort of contract to import limestone from Macao I think.
Warren's partner, my grandfather John Olson, is named as a contractor in the company and Warren did title himself architect in later years. Finally, according to Warren family research they had a showroom at 30 - 32 Des Voeux Road.
Builders usually have bulders yards!
David has done some research on C.E. Warren and Co and mentions several projects they were involved in but they seemed more like fitting out and finishing rather than building.
Last of all none of my family have ever heard of my grandfather being involved in building projects. He did own land in HK - last bit went in the late 1960s and did have other businesses in HK but these were said to be "import/export". When he left HK in 1923 he also had interests in Singapore and homes in Canton and Shanghai. Also, in the between war years he had business contacts with Japan. None have the mearest hint of being to do with business.
I'm not sure about that location -- if the photo showing the panorama is taken from the house. The view looks straight north down the spine of the ridge separating Happy Valley and So Kon Po, whereas the site located above would look straight over So Kon Po. Also the Ladies Directory has the family living at 20 Broadwood Road at the same time, which would fit the photo better
80sKid, I had the same feeling about the 25, Cooper Road location, that it would have looked over So Kon Po.
Mr Cossart appears in several Jurors Lists. The 1923 and 1925 lists give his address as "22, Broadwood Road". That would put him near the "20, Broadwood Road" address we have for The Towers, and fit the 1920s photo better.
It doesn't explain why the 1919 Ladies Directory gives an address of 20, Broadwood Road for Mrs Cossart. It would be worth double-checking there's no transcription error. Or maybe it was just given as a correspondence address, as from the Jurors Lists, they certainly moved about:
Hello 80sKid. Just to confirm that The Towers was definitely no. 20 Broadwood Road, I telephoned my cousin, Diana Taschereau (née Warren) who lived with her parents and brother in the grounds at the "Cottage" till 1938. According to Diana, the Cottage was no. 19. John Fleming, who oversaw the business of C.E. Warren & Co. Ltd. post-1923, lived at the Bungalow at no. 21. Mrs Whiteley, Diana's godmother, lived at no. 17; the Hewitts at no. 18 and her friend, Veronica Walker, at the beginning of Broadwood Road. Any knowledge of these people or their relatives would be welcome - also of any children who, like her, attended John Fleming's Christmas parties in the 1930s.
If you zoom in to this Hedda Morrison photo (double-click the thumbnail), you can see several houses along Broadwood Road. They're looking rather derelict after the war.
It is very hard to see whether in fact The Towers is there at all. It would seem to have undergone a big change of facade if it is. My pictures show only one door/entrance at the rear overlooking Happy Valley Racecourse.
Somewhere, have read that it was used as a Japanese Officer's Club during the occupation and I have also a memory of being told it became a school for girls. When I do not know.
Perhaps it was knocked down prior to the Japanese occupation ot perhaps destroyed during their retreat?
Certainly my pictures posted ages ago on this site do not match.
I wonder if the Towers was slightly out of sight on the right hand side; appears to be comparing with other photos. Incidentally, some minor trivia: you can see the Le Calvaire orphanage (just to the right of the clock tower) in better condition than the houses on the hill behind. It was used by the Japanese as a police station and jail. The steps carved through the big granite wall by the front entrance was done by the Japanese - one of the few surviving remnants of their rule here...!
You may well be right. The school certainly rings a bell with me. Suspect it may have been an email feedback I got from my website which was of no particular interest to me at the time. Of course can't find the thing now.
It might also be worth you checking David's picture with the postcard from 1923 which I posted some time ago and is in thee 1920s section of Old HK.
That has arrows showing The Towers and No 13 Broadwood Road. This is a definite identifications from somebody at the time. As you know the lie of the land intimately you may be able to tell if your theory is correct.
Comments
Warrens and Cossarts
Hi Sean, I'd suggest you contact the family who posted these old pics on Picasa. It appears they were close neighbours 3ith the Warrens on Broadwood Road and it's highly likely C.E. Warren built their home (given his obituary states he built some 20 houses on that road). The same obituary lists Louis Cossart as among those attending the funeral, while the Ladies Directory lists Mrs L Cossart as living at 20 Broadwood Road in 1919.
The only confusing thing is the address - I see the Towers is sometimes given as 20 Broadwood Road but that clashes with these details...
Warrens and Cossarts
Hi 80sKid,
Now here's a mystery. And I'm afraid I am not going to be of much use.
My info regarding Warren comes from the family research carried out by his side of the family.
Until a few years ago I never knew he or his wife existed. My primary interest was in my great grandfather Jons Jakobsson aka John Olson. Warren married his eldest child named Hannah who I also did not know ever existed! Hannah was the child of a previous association with a woman named Kum Yau who either died or left John. We do not know.
I know from Warren research that when Warren's first child was born in 1900 when the 28-year-old Englishman was employed by the Hong Kong Sanitary Department as a Second Class Inspector of Nuisances at a salary of HK$960 per annum. This is recorded in the Hong Kong Blue Book of 1900-1901.
I must also say we know anything of the career of my great grandfather John Olson except for the fact that he declared himself to be a hotelkeeper on the birth certificate of his son John 2, who was my grandfather. That is where I started from.
There were two separate oral traditions relating to what my great grandfather did in Hong Kong.
The first said he was a successful well-off engineer who was responsible for all the drains in Hong Kong, and who also built Happy Valley racecourse. This is related by a first cousin of mine.The second said he was well off, and that he built 21 houses on the Peak. This came from a Warren granddaughter who had not met my cousin with the other story! Both were wrong!
This means that I can't confirm anything about numbers except that "my" side of the family had a home at 13 Broadwood Road. That's in the Juror's list of I think 1927 if memory serves me and certainly they lived there around 1920 as I have pictures which show The Towers further up the hill.
From Warren research I can tell you that in 1913 Charles Warren and Co bought two lots of land at auction for HK$7100. On the second lot it was, according to the South China Morning Post, “the intention of Messrs Warren and Co., Sanitary Engineers, tile makers etc., to build…a modern tile factory, equipped with up-to- date plant, in extension of the factory which they built a few years ago and which has already become inadequate for their business”. The second lot was at Wongneichong Road overlooking Happy Valley Racecourse, which later became Broadwood Road.
That house was The Towers and was built and finished around 1917. But whether it was number 20 or not I don't know. I also believe there was also a bungalow in the grounds.
There was a huge family split between 1918 and 1923 which goes some way to explaining the lack of info. Have a scan through www.thehongkonglegacy.com if you are interested.
Sorry to go on so long but it is very interesting to find another link. Have left a message on the Picasa site. So will see what happens.
Thanks for the discovery and interest.
Sean
re: Warren
Interesting stuff; I think one of his greatest achievements was developing what was known as the Ridge but basically was the spine of the hill above Happy Valley and connected by Broadwood Road. I would hazard a guess that 20 Broadwood Road is the building on the ridge to the right of the Towers as seen here: https://picasaweb.google.com/olsonone/LifeAndTimesInHongKong#5084034253912578738
If you zoom in the more modern style seems to be similar to the photo above. Be great to hear what comes of the connection to the family who lived there and attended his funeral.
The Towers
Think you might well be right about the house in the picture above The Towers. Am sure that the house marked as The Towers is the right one as it was done on a postcard in 1923!
The Ridge is a new one on me. My understanding from Warren records I have seen is that he bought the land where The Towers was and built it and a bungalow. Nothing else. Don't know anything about The Ridge I'm afraid. My interest is the Olson side of the family and, as there was such a big split way back when in which I suspect both sides played a full part, his life and career are pretty peripheral to my interest.
Have had a preliminary email from the No 20 picture person. Will see where that leads.
Sean
r: the Towers
Hi, it's from his obituary in the Hong Kong Daily Press: `He will be remembered also as the pioneer of building enterprise on 'The Ridge,' overlooking the Racecourse at Happy Valley. Upwards of twenty houses there, were built by him, and he presided in a very spacious and, in many respects, very remarkable residence known as 'The Towers.'
Incidentally Broadwood Road appears to have been named after Major General RG Broadwood, commanding officer of the troops and left Hong Kong in 1910.
The Ridge and C.E.Warren
Saw that in the obit as well. As a retired journo I don't always believe what I read! Also if this is correct why does it not appear in the Warren family research that I have seen? Could well be right but it is something of a mystery.
Also C.E.Warren was set up to provide sanitary ware, bathroom stuff and tiles and marble. They were also monumental masons making gravestones - I can see their mark in pictures of my great grandmother's grave. Also they had some sort of contract to import limestone from Macao I think.
Warren's partner, my grandfather John Olson, is named as a contractor in the company and Warren did title himself architect in later years. Finally, according to Warren family research they had a showroom at 30 - 32 Des Voeux Road.
Builders usually have bulders yards!
David has done some research on C.E. Warren and Co and mentions several projects they were involved in but they seemed more like fitting out and finishing rather than building.
Last of all none of my family have ever heard of my grandfather being involved in building projects. He did own land in HK - last bit went in the late 1960s and did have other businesses in HK but these were said to be "import/export". When he left HK in 1923 he also had interests in Singapore and homes in Canton and Shanghai. Also, in the between war years he had business contacts with Japan. None have the mearest hint of being to do with business.
Another mystery to be solved.
Sean
The Cossart House
Sean's had a reply from the person who posted the photos on Picasa. They write:
Here is (was) the postion of the house. No idea when it was taken
down. I was able to triangulate it from 3 of my grandfather's photos.
[gmap markers=small bred::22.26854329206632,114.19045686721802 |align=Center |zoom=16 |center=22.270471754967826,114.18846130371094 |width=350px |height=350px |control=Small |type=Map]
25 Cooper Road, Jardine
I can't find the lot number on the Gov Land Search:
Broadwood Road
I'm not sure about that location -- if the photo showing the panorama is taken from the house. The view looks straight north down the spine of the ridge separating Happy Valley and So Kon Po, whereas the site located above would look straight over So Kon Po. Also the Ladies Directory has the family living at 20 Broadwood Road at the same time, which would fit the photo better
re: Broadwood Road
80sKid, I had the same feeling about the 25, Cooper Road location, that it would have looked over So Kon Po.
Mr Cossart appears in several Jurors Lists. The 1923 and 1925 lists give his address as "22, Broadwood Road". That would put him near the "20, Broadwood Road" address we have for The Towers, and fit the 1920s photo better.
It doesn't explain why the 1919 Ladies Directory gives an address of 20, Broadwood Road for Mrs Cossart. It would be worth double-checking there's no transcription error. Or maybe it was just given as a correspondence address, as from the Jurors Lists, they certainly moved about:
Regards, David
Leaving it to the experts
I think this subject is way beyond me now and the best thing to do is leave it to those who know.
Unfortunately Warren always gave his business address on juror lists as far as I can remember.
Small point about 80sKid and the picture. That was a postcard and the date stamp on the back is 1923.
Over to those who know.
Sean
Warren and The Towers
Sorry. Just took a quick look at Jurors in 1918 and 1920. Warren shown as being resident at The Towers. He is a contractor.
Interestingly his partner - my grandfather is still listed at the business in Des Veoux Road and has become a merchant and not a contractor!
Sean
20 Broadwood Road
Hello 80sKid. Just to confirm that The Towers was definitely no. 20 Broadwood Road, I telephoned my cousin, Diana Taschereau (née Warren) who lived with her parents and brother in the grounds at the "Cottage" till 1938. According to Diana, the Cottage was no. 19. John Fleming, who oversaw the business of C.E. Warren & Co. Ltd. post-1923, lived at the Bungalow at no. 21. Mrs Whiteley, Diana's godmother, lived at no. 17; the Hewitts at no. 18 and her friend, Veronica Walker, at the beginning of Broadwood Road. Any knowledge of these people or their relatives would be welcome - also of any children who, like her, attended John Fleming's Christmas parties in the 1930s.
Photo of houses along Broadwood Road, c.1946
If you zoom in to this Hedda Morrison photo (double-click the thumbnail), you can see several houses along Broadwood Road. They're looking rather derelict after the war.
http://via.lib.harvard.edu:80/via/deliver/deepLinkItem?recordId=olvwork…
Photo of Houses along Broadwood Road
That's a really intersting picture.
David,
It is very hard to see whether in fact The Towers is there at all. It would seem to have undergone a big change of facade if it is. My pictures show only one door/entrance at the rear overlooking Happy Valley Racecourse.
Somewhere, have read that it was used as a Japanese Officer's Club during the occupation and I have also a memory of being told it became a school for girls. When I do not know.
Perhaps it was knocked down prior to the Japanese occupation ot perhaps destroyed during their retreat?
Certainly my pictures posted ages ago on this site do not match.
Another mystery!
Sean
broadwood road
I wonder if the Towers was slightly out of sight on the right hand side; appears to be comparing with other photos. Incidentally, some minor trivia: you can see the Le Calvaire orphanage (just to the right of the clock tower) in better condition than the houses on the hill behind. It was used by the Japanese as a police station and jail. The steps carved through the big granite wall by the front entrance was done by the Japanese - one of the few surviving remnants of their rule here...!
I think the Towers was knocked down to become the notably new brown and peach buildings on far right here: https://picasaweb.google.com/cybergem2009/McKIDSCHILDHOODS#5558502383628061394
Site of The Towers
Hi 80sKid,
You may well be right. The school certainly rings a bell with me. Suspect it may have been an email feedback I got from my website which was of no particular interest to me at the time. Of course can't find the thing now.
It might also be worth you checking David's picture with the postcard from 1923 which I posted some time ago and is in thee 1920s section of Old HK.
That has arrows showing The Towers and No 13 Broadwood Road. This is a definite identifications from somebody at the time. As you know the lie of the land intimately you may be able to tell if your theory is correct.
Have a look see and let me know what you think.
Sean
I have a Dorothy Whitely who
I have a Dorothy Whiteley who married the Rev. George She (aka George Samuel Zimmern) a headmaster of DBS.
Dorothy Whitely
Thanks, Annelise. I will pass this on to her goddaughter, Diana. We have a photo of Mrs Whitely, but didn't know anything else about her.