Eh?

Submitted by kpl on Thu, 02/23/2023 - 19:48

When I click on "what's new", I'm presented with a bunch of posts with reasonably recent update times - such as https://gwulo.com/media/36095 - but the last post there is dated 2022-04-30, yet in the "what's new" list it was supposedly updated 4 minutes & 3 seconds a little while ago (2023-02-23 19:xx local time).  The better part of a year on is far from new, or so I used to think.

I have also been unable to find again a post with a photo of the then-Tsuen Wan Pool in the mid-70s, which in the background shows the hill above Lai King before development.  Nor can I find any post for the Kwai Shing Pool before the presumably massive earthquake that shifted all of Tsuen Wan to Tsuen Wan.  I cannot recall if that post was pre- or post-new website.

No doubt this is all because I'm doing something wrong.  It always is.

So what am I doing wrong?

-kpl.

Several things can cause a post to be updated and so reappear in the What's New list, eg a new comment is added, the post is edited, or tags / connections are added to the post. If that doesn't explain the post you're looking at, please could you let me have a link to it so I can take a look.

Sorry, I don't remember the photos you're describing. Have you looked at the map of Places to see if we have any around that area that show the photos? See: https://gwulo.com/map-of-places#15~22.3522~114.1262~Map_by_GovHK-Marker…

Here are the pages you've previously commented on, in case it is one of those: https://gwulo.com/user/4243/activity

The old version of the website is still online, so you could also check if you can find it there: https://old.gwulo.com/

Regards, David

Hi kpl - If you are referring to the thread surrounding the springboard girl then you can find that here, but it was never thought to be in Tsuen Wan in the first place, only mistakenly thought to be in Lai Chi Kok, so I'm not sure that's the same one you are referring to. It's just the only pool I can think of of late. More info surrounding the mystery pool is also here.
Phil

Hi kpl,

I don't think that you are doing anything wrong!  Your problem probably stems from there being TWO threads relating to the pool associated with the Springboard girl.  One was centred at a house above the  Lai Chi Kok amusement centre, where Oldtimer distinctly remembers swimming in a pool with the iconic crazy paved structure.  The other was at the Yick Yuen property on Lantau.  The discussion became very complicated and it is a shame that at some time we were not able to consolidate the two threads into one - but that might have proved to be even more confusing.

Hopefully the recent comments and links by Admin and philk will enable you to follow this rather tangled two-thread discussion, but the following summary might also help you in understanding what is almost certainly to have happened.

Oldtimer and several others and I have arrived at a reasonable explanation.  It is now very likely that there were in fact TWO very similar pools each with almost identical crazy paved structures.  Malcolm Trousdale (subgallery within the 367 Association gallery) took a photograph overlooking Lai Chi Kok (rekindling Oldtimer's memory of swimming in a pool at a house visible up on the hillside above the park).  Another of Malcolm's photographs, which became known as 'The Springboard Girl', showed the iconic structure that Oldtimer distinctly remembers, but we now know that this photograph was taken in the large garden of a house at Yick Yuen on Lantau.  This has been confirmed by the family who owned that house and it is very likely that they were strongly connected with the Lai Chi Kok Amusement park.  Malcolm's photographs were taken between 1951 and 1953, and when he sent me digital copies of his collection they were not described and were in a muddled sequence.  He died some years ago so I cannot check with him.  Oldtimer's visit to the pool at Lai Chi Kok was a few years later.  So, it is now fairly certain that the structure at Yick Yuen was copied for a second pool that Oldtimer then visited.  This Lai Chi Kok pool and structure no longer exist but the ones on Lantau are still there and can be seen on Google Earth and its Street View.

I hope that this is some help to you.  The two threadsl illustrates the lengths that the Gwulo community goes to investigate images and the stories that they tell - to use David's own basis for the excellent books that he publishes.  Andrew Suddaby

Thanks for the explanation, David.  I guess it must be updated tags or other things not so obvious, as invariably there's no additional comment or anything that stands out as something that would make it obvious there's been some sort of update.  As expected, my bad.

Kwai Shing Pool is bounded by Kwai Fuk Road, Shing Fuk Street & Kwai Shing Crescent.  The picture was from a bit west & above the pool, looking toward the east, with Lai King Hill in the background - taken in mid-70s, when had just been constructed.  That it was originally called Tsuen Wan Pool perhaps reflected a lack of understanding of the area by those in charge of things at the time - defo one of those tidbits of local knowledge that perhaps someday I will find a local who also knows. ;^)

Anyway, searching for either name (both inside & without quote marks) on either the old or new sites finds nothing.  I also drilled through everything a search for pool found on the new site.  There definitely was such a photo posted, but I can't recall when it went on the site. FYI.  Conclusion: I must endeavour to bookmark posts-of-interest at the first instance from now on.

I wanted to share that photo with somebody I bumped into on the slopes of Lai King Hill.  We have packs of stray dogs around here & rather than let the Ag, Fish & Destruction Dept wipe them out, with each new litter volunteers catch & rehome the puppies in hopes that keeps the lot off Ag & Fish's radar.  There is a surprising amount of wildlife on this slope & how it managed to get here prior to all the weed trees popping up after the roads went in, effectively isolating this habitat before it could even support all the snakes & lizards & everything that the constantly riding-the-thermals big birds around here feed on.  Something somewhat fascinating to ponder as I wait to see/hear signs of the dogs to relay to the volunteers.

Another post shortly about the pool that never was at Chung Shan Toi.

Ta!

-kpl.

- bounded by Kwai Fuk Road, Shing Fuk Street & Kwai Shing Crescent. Is this where the current municipal pools are located?  Prior to the implementation of the current district boundaries, no doubt it was part of Tsuen Wan at the time.

I don't recall this image/photo (but I recall less and less as I get older), but also there's no marker on the map at that location so perhaps the location was never confirmed 100%, or someone just forgot to create one?

I know we can easily bookmark threads by commenting on them (then they will appear on our "activity" list) but it would be nice to have the ability to bookmark threads without the need to comment on them. Any thoughts David?

Phil

Thanks for the comments, philk & Andrew.  The Tsuen Wan-now-Kwai Shing Pool is not the pool-that-never-was at Chung Shan Toi.

I've lived now for >15 years on Lai King Hill.  I regularly bicycle to Tai Po Road, passing 1, Chung Shan Toi sometimes several times a week.  So it was interesting to follow the discussion about Swimming Pool Girl as nothing in the background matched the lay-of-the-land as can be seen in https://gwulo.com/media/42998 - in particular, the house in the distance that would have sat right in the middle of pre-dual carriageway Castle Peak Road.  Even more so how the hill in the distance became taller & closer as it is today.

The lot is too small for a pool of that size.  The house was among the last to be built.  That someone went back to Lands Dept to redevelop a pool into a house (modify or new land lease, pay additional premium) doesn't make much sense.  And boy, there's quite a bit of a hike from the LCK Amusement Park to get up to 1, Chung Shan Toi.

That what clearly is the original construction garage of 1, Chung Shan Toi having been a pool did not make sense, as the shadows in the aerial photos are consistent with the garage as can be seen at https://gwulo.com/media/42881 & https://gwulo.com/media/42997 .  That there might have been a pool at one point on the roof of the garage also did not make sense, due to both size of the garage & the likely thickness of the walls/roof judging from the construction of the house.

I figured Swimming Pool Girl was at the pool in the LCK Amusement Park, though even then the background didn't match what I know as I also walk to Mei Foo by way of the trail through the farmland above & then through Kau Wah Keng.  So in the end, it wasn't too much of a surprise Swimming Pool Girl was taken on Lantau.

I'm afraid I found it hard to contribute to that discussion, as to challenge recollection with my admittedly limited but perhaps better than most's familiarity with the area (at least as it is now) might not have been welcome.  So I sat on my fingers & hoped that I'll remember to be careful about what I might think I recall when it's my turn should I be able to recall anything then. ;^)

Now I'll go back to lurking.  Hopefully that pic of the Tsuen Wan-now-Kwai Shing Pool resurfaces, or I can find a way to jump back to the parallel universe where it existed.  Or perhaps I've failed already & need to come to grips with not being able to quite trust my recollection anymore.

Cheers!

-kpl.

philk said: "Prior to the implementation of the current district boundaries, no doubt it was part of Tsuen Wan at the time."

But long before that, I would imagine what Kwai Shing would become was already decided.  Let's name the pool for something else than the area we're building it in, where we're building all sorts of stuff.  Even the prospect of a district boundary change might be anticipated - but gov't "works" in ways that bewilder mere mortal paddy field peons such as myself, so that's a plausible explanation!

What first crossed my mind was somebody far, far away in an gov't office on HK-side was a bit geographically challenged when it came to New Kowloon & beyond.  ;^)

-kpl.

Hi kpl,

I am getting increasingly lost in following the great mystery!  Living in England it is difficult to check things out, especially when I have no personal knowledge of either area. 

Is your reference to pools connected with some modern pools that are basically in the area of the old Lai Chi Kok Amusement Park, but which have nothing to do with the one that Peter recalls as having been at the house (top one) on the Chung Shan Terrace?  Incidentally Peter remembers it being quite a climb up from the Amusement Park to that house - and he was a fit young teenager. 

 I must stress that my only personal connection with Lai Chi Kok was a visit in August 1981 to the Sung Dynasty Village, which had been built on the inland part of the old Lai Chi Kok Amusement Park.  On Google Earth the site is by the large curve on Lai King Hill Road and just below the lower part of Chung Shan Terrace.  So, my extensive contribution to the discussion in the two threads is very much based on interpretation of Malcolm Trousdale's photographs, the date when they were taken (1951/3) and Peter's visits to Lai Chi Kok a few years later.  I believe that we all now acknowledge that the Springboard girl photograph was taken on Lantau at Yick Yuen.  There is a known family connection between the property at Yick Yuen and Lai Chi Kok and, as Peter never went to Lantau, he and I now believe that the Yick Yuen crazy paving structure was probably copied for the pool that he recalls at the Chung Shan Terrace.  I agree that the latter's current site looks to be too small for any pool but have a feeling that on one of the photographs the garden for the top house, 'his' house was originally larger but was at some time taken over  and used to extend the next door house, so his pool was demolished.  I might be wrong.

Nothing beats a good mystery!  Andrew

 

Greetings!

Several years ago when I first looked at Malcolm Trousdale’s 1952 photo of the springboard girl, I said to myself it was the same pool I swam in several times in 1955~56 up the hill from Lai Chi Kok Amusement Park. The only connection was the stone-decorated wall sign which I remember, thinking it was a unique piece of art. The discussions that followed (on another Gwulo page), led by fivestar, phil and others, have identified it was at Yick Yuen where a similar wall sign also stood.  Other than the stones used, I consider they are identical in design and dimension, including the canopies and flower planter.

I have not been able to prove definitively that the pool I used was located at 1 Chung Shan. I was 10-11 years old then, but after a few trips, I managed to keep some details, as follows:

1. walking out of a low level simple gate at the back of the Lai Chi Kok Amusement Park, continued northward through open field (please refer to 1949 aerial map). After about 2 minutes walk, I came across a small area covered by medium high vegetation. From this point, I walked eastward.

2. I had to climbed up two embankments, the first one very steep, the second a bit easier, crossing a walk path and then a paved road the latter still there today though widened much since.

3. walking uphill to the top of the then new housing development (no shorter path to 1 Chung Shan). There were still a few empty lots, and one house was under construction.

4. rounding the top of the development clockwise to the lane next to Castle Peak Road. Walked past the first few houses at least two of them on the left (north side) looked like multi units.

5. Arrived at the last house on the left where there was a pool. There were two openings at the fence (property line), a man was at one entrance collecting (50 cents I vaguely remember).

6. The pool was not large (smaller than the one at Yick Yuen shown in aerial photo), and was located quite close to the building. Yes, it was a tight fit in that area, but it was possible to squeeze a small pool in there. I remember the narrow passage between it and the building, not exactly parallel to each one I should add. There was a life-saver (personal floation suit) hanging on the wall plus a long handle hock another pool safety item.

7. On one of my visit, the planter (part of the stone wall - canopy assembly) looked like fresh concrete. So, this assembly was built a few years after the one at Yick Yuen. It was easy to swim from one end to the other end because its wall (at least the west wall) had a recess (filtering system) at the water surface which I could hang onto when taking a rest. I don’t know if the one at Yick Yuen also had this feature.

8. One time, standing outside 1 Chung Shan, I saw a car rounding the curve up to Castle Peak Road.  The area was  covered by tall grass and vegetation.

9. One time, it was evening and closing time for the pool. A swimmer ran past me next to the pool end with blood streaming from the top of his head. I could only guess, that he wanted to take one more dive before pool closing. His friend was following him also running. Next, the staff at the front desk came out and he helped the swimmer into the building. That was the last I saw them, I think he was ok. I looked at my hand and saw blood drops.

10. About the garage, it did not exist at that time.

By the time of the 1963 aerial photo, as mentioned in the discussion, the shadow reveals that the garage was already there. I believe the pool’s existence lasted for a very short time. Perhaps for business reason, zoning, or both. it was demolished.   The two did not share exactly the same foot print.

11. I have posted interior floor plan of the building based on my memory - front desk (definitely a business operation), showers, stairs to upper level rooms (about half a dozen small rooms) and from there looking down to the dining area below, dining tables, carts.

I wrote to the current owner asking if there are any sign, or remnant of the pool. No reply thus far.

The Chung Shan Toi government map is interesting. Thank you. I cannot explain the difference between what it shows and the actual layout.

While not a proof of  the pool’s location, this is worth mentioning: I found (sorry I did not keep the link) the springboard girl photo posted at one Facebook page. One reader made a short comment ‘ “At Castle Peak Road”. The pool was not well known to the general public. I learned about this place because its neighbour next door was a classmate of my sister.  Hope some day some one or his/her parents can recall their swimming days.

Regards, Peter

Or at least part of it, Andrew - I merely asked about the Kwai Shing Pool pic that I can't find now.  I guess because the last time I was seen here was during the Swimming Pool Girl discussion, that it was thought my query had something to do with that.  Hence your & philk's subsequent posts.  And now we're off on that tangent.

No worries, mate.  I had a spare moment to go on a short walkabout of the 'net yesterday & found some pictures elsewhere showing the west slope of Lai King Hill from around the same time frame.  That little endeavour gives me an appreciation for the efforts of some of the more prolific contributors here make, dredging up gem after gem after gem.  Good on 'em!

I never set foot in the LCKAP when it still existed (not wanting to do business with the Chius given the state of the zoo).  It's also been a few years since I've walked the full length of Chung Shan Toi - after finding the trail down into Kau Wah Keng, no point in taking a longer route.  But other than the bit going through what is now the Kwai Chung/Princess Margaret Hospitals, I've walked pretty much every trail (or as close as possible as things are today) around Lai King Hill as well as around Kau Wah Keng Pumping Station Upper Village/Cheung Hang/etc & what I call Monkeyland around the Kowloon Reservoirs.  So I'm somewhat familiar with the neighbourhood.  Knowing something about the history of where I live is, it seems, a permanent side effect from living too long in NT villages (as an outsider hoping for reciprocation of respect from non-outsiders).

The granite architectural features like that of the Yick Yuen pool entrance seemed to be somewhat popular back in the 50s/60s as a friend who built a house in Clearwater Bay before electricity or paving of the road reached that far had bits sticking out like that, too.  Tarting things up a bit by cladding them in granite was also something the gov't did until at least up to the mid-70s, based on some of the buildings around here.  Good ideas I would have thought, as today, are bound to get some traction.

I prefer to try to disprove a theory I might have, rather than find something to support it.  Hopefully with that approach, I can contribute to discussions here.

Digging through my emails, I see it's been a decade now since my last interaction anyone from 367.  Sadly, it seems the OSA prevents discussion of anything about the history of RFDF here.  Oh well.

Cheers!

-kpl.

As mentioned earlier in this thread, this thread originally had absolutely nothing to do with Chung Shan Toi or anything else other than the Tsuen Shing/Kwai Wan Pool (please forgive my attempt at humour).  But no worries.  It's good to hear from you OldTimer/Peter, mate.  As I mentioned in a previous post, I prefer to try to disprove what I think I think I know.  So please bear with me.

I have no idea how many times I looked down from what remains of the apparent original jeep track accessing the Kowloon Reserviors from Castle Peak Road just across from the top of Chung Shan Toi (now gone either do to landslips and/or the subsequent widening of Castle Peak Road, after the access road from just above Lai Chi Kok Hospital was built) on my bicycle rides to Tai Po Road, but it's that familiarity with the area calls into question that the Swimming Pool Girl pic was taken there.

That map I shared - posted by gov't adjacent to 1, Chung Shan Toi before the erection of a fence that will achieve little other than preventing the pack of wild pigs that live on the slope between Chung Shan Toi/Kau Wah Keng & the top of the pass by the filling stations from going where they already know not to go as they're not that stupid - calls into question your recollection.  Again, please bear with me.

Standing outside 1, Chung Shan Toi & looking eastish - although it's not possible at the moment for me to retrieve my inclinometer  from storage in order to sight the top of the ridge to the east between Chung Shan Toi (I used to fill my rice bowl doing something similar, hence possession of such tools) - I am fairly certain that that  photo could not have been taken there.  The geometry is glaringly obviously wrong.

The hill in the distance from the pool seems nowhere near as tall as the hill I can see when standing next to 1, Chung Shan Toi today.  Likewise, there is that house visible in the photo, which would be somewhere in the middle  of Castle Peak Road.  I have not been able to find any map that shows the existence of that house.

And the hill in the Swimming Girl Photo appears to be much further away than the hill is when viewed from 1, Chung Shan Toi today.

Seismic shifts that might move things around & make hills grow or shrink I'm not aware of in the interim - though there was one here of significance in the late 80s, but as best as I can recall, it didn't make Kwai Shing move to Tsuen Wan or vice versa (pool humour again: during that incident, I was on HK-side on the site of the old Causeway Bay Magistracy & "enjoyed" the ride 39 floors up as the building swayed - leaving a hellacious crack in a load bearing wall).

Seeing how I'm once again a man of leisure, I'd be more than happy to explain in person on-site if it were convenient to you, mate.  For all I know, I could be mistaken.  But try as I might, I have not been able to disprove myself in the interim despite my best efforts & the presumption that everything that I may think is so is wrong.

Cheers!

-kpl.

Hi kpl - yes, apologies for initiating the tangent. The mention of a pool triggered my memory of the only one i could think of in recent history.  The location of the springboard girl has already been discovered and resolved, as you will have seen from the threads I linked to. What remains a mystery is where Peter's elusive pool was located - something which careful examination of aerial photos and maps has yet to reveal. 

Phil.
 

 

Thank you folks for the interesting and informative comments. 

There is still the possibility that my memory of the pool's location is faulty.  Sometime, absolute precision is not readily possible and needs time, so for now it is close enough.  Your peep in photo brought up this emotional feeling.  The  path between the garage and the building narrows as one walks towards the rear.  It reminds me of my walk - also path narrowing - with the pool on my left and its maintenance items stored on the right.  Thanks kpl.

Was the pool really at 1 Chung Shan?  If it was, it is possible the owner (or subsequent owner) chose to place the garage on the same footprint using the strong footing and support already there.    Regards,  Peter

Sorry for the belated reply, Peter - had some stuff to do.

From the first instance, that Spring Board Girl was taken from anywhere around the top of Chung Shan Toi I knew was impossible as my bike rides to Tai Po Road went via the footpath that roughly parallels the jeep track that led up to the Kowloon Water Works that branched off Castle Peak Road right across from Chung Shan Toi.

If the photo was taken there, then the hill that footpath goes up has since moved closer to Chung Shan Toi.  And got shorter.  Since it was hard to convey this in a photo, it was handy gov't posted that map nearby when it sought objections to building a fence.  There you have the elevations & distances.  Do the trig.  The angles are all wrong.  It is obvious if one has been there in person - the picture absolutely could not have been taken there.  Anyway, eventually the discussion here reached the same conclusion, but for other reasons.

Whether or not land leases then allowed developing one thing, then knocking it down to build something else I dunno, but those I'm familiar with from ~30 years ago do not.  Perhaps officialdom wasn't all that bothered about that then.  Or the original developer of Chung Shan Toi had good kwan hai (關係), or could supply sufficient tea money to divert attention...

One thing I might expect to be remembered, if the pool was on the same lot, is that it was immediately adjacent to the only road into the NW NT at the time.  Literally in spitting distance.  Traffic was admittedly much less then, but it was the only route, going up hill & only one lane in each direction.  And would have been visible from anywhere on that lot.

I may be a little odd, preferring to prove some theory I may have by trying to disprove it instead as then confirmation bias is unlikely to come into play.  Hopefully my contribution can help & it will be possible to eventually flesh out your recollections & solve this mystery!

Cheers!

-kpl.

Thank you kpl for your comments.  Regarding Malcolm Trousdale's photo of the springboard girl, Philk and other readers have identified in 2021 its location at Yick Yuen.

I continue to search for information and proof that the pool I swam in 1955-56 was located at 1 Chung Shan. Your peep in photo at Chung Shan led me to more thinking about my search, so I will share with you and readers when I put together my thoughts.  Regards,  Peter

Update March 2, 2023:  Thank you kpl for your comments related to the pool I used at Lai Chi Kok. To avoid confusion given there are several threads on this subject, I have placed my reply at -

Pool in Lai Chi Kok – is it still there? [????- ] -

https://gwulo.com/node/58489#17~22.34390~114.13883~Map_by_GovHK-Markers…

 

Springboard girl.
Springboard girl., by Andrew Suddaby
springboard visible ridgeline
springboard visible ridgeline, by OldTimer

Yes, Swimming Pool Girl obviously wasn't taken at Chung Shan Toi, but at the time that discussion was taking place, it was thought that it was.  The ridge just east of there is ~130 m elevation, whilst the road in front of the garage at 1, Chung Shan Toi is ~50 m.  The ridge is ~200 m distant.  The angles are wrong & there's that building in the distant background of the photo which couldn't have been in the middle of Castle Peak Road as it looked to be too far away (as well as doesn't make any sense to be in the middle of a road that has existed since 1910-something I believe it is) - and clearly wasn't on the somewhat steep slope that can't be seen in the photo starting from the opposite side the road.  To say any of that at the time I suspected wouldn't have been all that welcome, so I didn't.  Anyway...

Note the garage - which I am fairly confident is original construction (as well as the house - perhaps the only original construction remaining in CST [it's been too long since I walked thru CST]) - isn't all that much larger than the BMW i3 parked in front of the pic I took from the outside.  So the pool would have been rather  small if there was one where the garage is now.

That one could build one thing, then knock it down & build something else given land leases here does not quite fit with the leasehold land system implemented in all British colonies after the excitement in North America toward the end of the 18th century.  Also, there is how land is priced based on its use & gov't charges more for a lot used for a business (hotel) than a residence.  And that change of use requires a new lease.  On the other hand, maybe things were a little slack then... not to mention that the area was considered a bit remote (out of sight, out of mind? ;^).

But then there's your recollection & it seems to be firming up nicely on this revisit.

I need to get some exercise & found the spare key after the other was lost, so can unchain my bike from the tree where I hid it, fill the flat tyres & hopefully get down there to see if I can find somewhere to take some more pics that might help.

Cheers!

-kpl.

Thanks kpl.  Stubbornness took hold of me while we were searching for the location of the springboard girl photo.  The stone decorated wall sign looked unique, so how could it be somewhere else other than the one I used at Lai Chi Kok!  Regards,   Peter

Peter, that's just confirmation bias.  From the get-go in the Springboard Girl discussion, I had been looking down on 1, CST I don't know how many times, with the view similar to that in https://gwulo.com/media/44678 .  Stubbornness would be not being too receptive to suggestions of anything to the contrary of what one believes something to be.  And that certainly has not been the case in figuring out the SG mystery, mate.

Fingers crossed I'll have more on CST later.  Stay warm!

Regards,

-kpl.

To me, an amazing thing is that the house that Peter so clearly recalls from his childhood visits nearly 70 years ago appears to be the only house in that row of houses at the higher end of Chung Shan Tong that has not been replaced by significantly larger apartment blocks.  It suggest to me that with the high value of land in Hong Kong, the ownership of the land or maybe its lease is possibly still with the same family who were there in the 1950s and who do not want to move out.