I'm still not positive that they are all the same person and that this is the mother of William Leyland Hunter's children. There are still questions. Kot Choy is listed as Goot Choy and as Anna Hunter in the SCMP newspaper article. I've found references to Anne Hunter death on same date, listed in Carl Smith Collection. Also found ref to James Hunter, son of William Leyland Hunter and wife Catherine, so yet another name for this person.
Yes, she certainly didn't want to make your research easy!
There are a couple of possible links matching Anna and Catherine as the same person:
First if Catherine Hunter was born in April 1853 as shown above, she'd be 83 in January 1937, which matches the age given for Mrs Anna Hunter in her estate notice in the SCMP.
The other is the unusual family name Kot / Cot / Goot for Anna. The last version, Goot, sounds very much like a name you'd choose if you were looking for a Chinese name that sounded like Coutes, Catherine's maiden name. There have been other cases where Eurasian children with a western father would take a Chinese name that sounds similar to their father's surname.
They suggest a match, but no firm evidence yet.
Separately, I had an email from Henry Ching. He's interested to know where you found the new reference that mentions "James Hunter, son of William Leyland Hunter and wife Catherine".
Tobias Hunter's death certificate, with information provided by his daughter Iris, shows Catherine Coutes ( born Hong Kong) is his mother and William Leyland Hunter as his father.
The reference to James, son of William Leyland Hunter and his wife Catherine was from the Carl Smith Collection.There is very little info on the copy of the card that they sent me.
I have nothing on Catherine Coutes other than what was given as "mother of deceased" on Tobias Hunter's death certificate. I can't find any record of her anywhere else, either as Coutes or Coutts. Although the wording in the SCMP Obit shows an English name with Chinese Alias, I suspect it may have been the reverse, with her being Asian or Eurasian, and having been given an anglicized version. A possible tie is in the estate left to Tobias Hunter simply refered to as "G's Legacy" in my family's letters. "G" was likely "Goot" There have been references over the course of my life by other family members, that Tobias Hunter and his sister May,were part Chinese. Recent DNA tests showed that I have a small percentage of Asian, as do my two living cousins who are direct line descendants of Tobias Hunter's siblings, George and May ( all of whom personal contact has been known) The brother James is a more recent discovery, and so far is only recorded as the son of William Leyland Hunter and Catherine. WLH is the common link. They could have had different mothers. George, Tobias and May all shared in the proceeds of "Goot's estate, so that indicates they had a common mother. James however?
I am now looking into the name "Choy" which seems to be more common in Taiwan and Hong Kong but not so much elsewhere in China. Interestingly, I've discovered that the names Choi and Choa are variants of Choy and there were several Choas at the funeral of James Hunter's wife in June, 1933. She shows as being buried at the R.C Cemetery, Hong Kong
The information given in the Carl Smith Collection is, unfortunately, often difficult to interpret. The reference is to “James son of William Leyland Hunter and wife Catherine”. I wonder if this should be read to mean James’ wife Catherine (that was in fact her name) rather than William Leyland Hunter’s wife Catherine (i.e. James’ mother)? The information refers to a baptism at St Peter’s Church and two dates are given – 1874 and 1911. It is not clear what these dates refer to - James apparently was born in 1874, so was 1911 the date of the baptism? If so, he would have been 37 years old. Were he and his wife baptised together as adults?
If there is any truth in the above paragraph, then the only primary source for the name Catherine Coutts (Coutes) is the Canadian death certificate for Tobias Hunter. If you look at that certificate you will see that his ethnicity is given as, I think, European. But I don’t think there is any doubt that he was Eurasian. Is there a possibility, I wonder, that the name Catherine Coutts was invented by Tobias Hunter’s family in Canada to disguise the Asian heritage? I think you are right about the connection between the name Coutts or Coutes and Goot/Cot/Kot. But I suggest the other way round – i.e. the Chinese name was anglicised. But I am guessing.
I'm also interested to know how accurately the DNA analysis works. Can it give any clues about which generation there was the first Asian member of your family, or just that it happened sometime in the past?
Hi Henry, James Hunter was born Nov 29 1874 and died Aug 8 1937. His wife was Emma, born July 28, 1877 died June 14 1933. Emma is buried at the Roman Catholic Cemetery in Hong Kong. Emma Hunter's grave appears to have been erected by the daughter Ellen Hunter. Tthe stone is inscribed "our Mother" which indicates she had a sibling. Ellen, it seems was also added to the mother's grave Nov 21, 1944. She was born June 12 1899. I also have a reference to Ellen's death in one of my grandfather's letters from 1945 following his release from the internment camps. As for the 22 Dec 1911 baptism at St Peters, it could have been that James was baptised for some reason later in his life, or there's is something missing on the scan of the Carl Smith Card that they sent and the date is from another entry. I agree that some Carl Smith cards are quite confusing but I have several so have crossed referenced the dates from others to arrive at my conclusions.
As for the DNA identifying the generatiion....no, I would think not. I'm not sure how it even IDs ethnicity in the first place. If it inded does work, then it is simply to distinguish traces or matches from known data bases. I'm not really sure. In my own case, I know my GGrandfather William Leyland Hunter, was born in Manchester, England and came to Asia in 1865. There was no known family exposure to Asia prior to that. His children were born in Asia (mother suspected as Kot/Coutes etc) He also had two further children with a second woman after he returned to the UK. They were born 1n 1887 and 1891. The woman, Kot/Coutes/Hunter's ethnicity is the part that is in question. It was rumored that my GF Tobias Hunter, was 1/4 Chinese, although this rumor was never spoken of in the immediate family. This would be the case had his mother been Eurasian. His sister May, was said to have had Chinese blood and that she talked with a clipped accent but this could have been due to her being born out there and her long exposure to the language. She married Tom Cock, who was also said to have mixed blood. He was born in China but his family ( originally from Scotland ) went first to India, so it is likely also true in his case as HIS father had multiple wives. Today's remaining three direct line family members who were DNA tested, of which I am one, all have similar DNA results, showing a small percentage ( 4-6% ) of East Asian ethnicity. Accuracy not withstanding, the fact remains that we are the only ones who show East Asian out of all our matches. The attached scan shows three Hunter women. I believe all are related.
Comments
This is Kot Choy
This is Kot Choy
So many names!
I'm still not positive that they are all the same person and that this is the mother of William Leyland Hunter's children. There are still questions. Kot Choy is listed as Goot Choy and as Anna Hunter in the SCMP newspaper article. I've found references to Anne Hunter death on same date, listed in Carl Smith Collection. Also found ref to James Hunter, son of William Leyland Hunter and wife Catherine, so yet another name for this person.
Re: So many names!
Yes, she certainly didn't want to make your research easy!
There are a couple of possible links matching Anna and Catherine as the same person:
First if Catherine Hunter was born in April 1853 as shown above, she'd be 83 in January 1937, which matches the age given for Mrs Anna Hunter in her estate notice in the SCMP.
The other is the unusual family name Kot / Cot / Goot for Anna. The last version, Goot, sounds very much like a name you'd choose if you were looking for a Chinese name that sounded like Coutes, Catherine's maiden name. There have been other cases where Eurasian children with a western father would take a Chinese name that sounds similar to their father's surname.
They suggest a match, but no firm evidence yet.
Separately, I had an email from Henry Ching. He's interested to know where you found the new reference that mentions "James Hunter, son of William Leyland Hunter and wife Catherine".
Regards, David
Tobias Hunter's death
Tobias Hunter's death certificate, with information provided by his daughter Iris, shows Catherine Coutes ( born Hong Kong) is his mother and William Leyland Hunter as his father.
Many names
The reference to James, son of William Leyland Hunter and his wife Catherine was from the Carl Smith Collection.There is very little info on the copy of the card that they sent me.
So many names
I have nothing on Catherine Coutes other than what was given as "mother of deceased" on Tobias Hunter's death certificate. I can't find any record of her anywhere else, either as Coutes or Coutts. Although the wording in the SCMP Obit shows an English name with Chinese Alias, I suspect it may have been the reverse, with her being Asian or Eurasian, and having been given an anglicized version. A possible tie is in the estate left to Tobias Hunter simply refered to as "G's Legacy" in my family's letters. "G" was likely "Goot" There have been references over the course of my life by other family members, that Tobias Hunter and his sister May,were part Chinese. Recent DNA tests showed that I have a small percentage of Asian, as do my two living cousins who are direct line descendants of Tobias Hunter's siblings, George and May ( all of whom personal contact has been known) The brother James is a more recent discovery, and so far is only recorded as the son of William Leyland Hunter and Catherine. WLH is the common link. They could have had different mothers. George, Tobias and May all shared in the proceeds of "Goot's estate, so that indicates they had a common mother. James however?
I am now looking into the name "Choy" which seems to be more common in Taiwan and Hong Kong but not so much elsewhere in China. Interestingly, I've discovered that the names Choi and Choa are variants of Choy and there were several Choas at the funeral of James Hunter's wife in June, 1933. She shows as being buried at the R.C Cemetery, Hong Kong
Coutes & Carl Smith
Some more ideas from Henry Ching:
The information given in the Carl Smith Collection is, unfortunately, often difficult to interpret. The reference is to “James son of William Leyland Hunter and wife Catherine”. I wonder if this should be read to mean James’ wife Catherine (that was in fact her name) rather than William Leyland Hunter’s wife Catherine (i.e. James’ mother)? The information refers to a baptism at St Peter’s Church and two dates are given – 1874 and 1911. It is not clear what these dates refer to - James apparently was born in 1874, so was 1911 the date of the baptism? If so, he would have been 37 years old. Were he and his wife baptised together as adults?
If there is any truth in the above paragraph, then the only primary source for the name Catherine Coutts (Coutes) is the Canadian death certificate for Tobias Hunter. If you look at that certificate you will see that his ethnicity is given as, I think, European. But I don’t think there is any doubt that he was Eurasian. Is there a possibility, I wonder, that the name Catherine Coutts was invented by Tobias Hunter’s family in Canada to disguise the Asian heritage? I think you are right about the connection between the name Coutts or Coutes and Goot/Cot/Kot. But I suggest the other way round – i.e. the Chinese name was anglicised. But I am guessing.
I'm also interested to know how accurately the DNA analysis works. Can it give any clues about which generation there was the first Asian member of your family, or just that it happened sometime in the past?
Regards, David
Coutes/Hunter on Carl Smith
Hi Henry, James Hunter was born Nov 29 1874 and died Aug 8 1937. His wife was Emma, born July 28, 1877 died June 14 1933. Emma is buried at the Roman Catholic Cemetery in Hong Kong. Emma Hunter's grave appears to have been erected by the daughter Ellen Hunter. Tthe stone is inscribed "our Mother" which indicates she had a sibling. Ellen, it seems was also added to the mother's grave Nov 21, 1944. She was born June 12 1899. I also have a reference to Ellen's death in one of my grandfather's letters from 1945 following his release from the internment camps. As for the 22 Dec 1911 baptism at St Peters, it could have been that James was baptised for some reason later in his life, or there's is something missing on the scan of the Carl Smith Card that they sent and the date is from another entry. I agree that some Carl Smith cards are quite confusing but I have several so have crossed referenced the dates from others to arrive at my conclusions.
As for the DNA identifying the generatiion....no, I would think not. I'm not sure how it even IDs ethnicity in the first place. If it inded does work, then it is simply to distinguish traces or matches from known data bases. I'm not really sure. In my own case, I know my GGrandfather William Leyland Hunter, was born in Manchester, England and came to Asia in 1865. There was no known family exposure to Asia prior to that. His children were born in Asia (mother suspected as Kot/Coutes etc) He also had two further children with a second woman after he returned to the UK. They were born 1n 1887 and 1891. The woman, Kot/Coutes/Hunter's ethnicity is the part that is in question. It was rumored that my GF Tobias Hunter, was 1/4 Chinese, although this rumor was never spoken of in the immediate family. This would be the case had his mother been Eurasian. His sister May, was said to have had Chinese blood and that she talked with a clipped accent but this could have been due to her being born out there and her long exposure to the language. She married Tom Cock, who was also said to have mixed blood. He was born in China but his family ( originally from Scotland ) went first to India, so it is likely also true in his case as HIS father had multiple wives. Today's remaining three direct line family members who were DNA tested, of which I am one, all have similar DNA results, showing a small percentage ( 4-6% ) of East Asian ethnicity. Accuracy not withstanding, the fact remains that we are the only ones who show East Asian out of all our matches. The attached scan shows three Hunter women. I believe all are related.