Horatio J DINNEN [????-????]

If you have no joy from the Cemetery office, Stephen, a very reliable source of information on the graves in the Colonial Cemetery is the researcher, Christine Thomas. Whereas Patricia Lim catalogued the surviving inscriptions, Christine transcribed all the grave records from the card index at the office. She has helped me to find a relative not recorded on the Lim website. She is happy to be contacted on her professional email address twiglet.thomas@myself.com by anyone who has a query about the graveyard - or indeed any Hong Kong related enquiry.

Stephen, Is there any chance your great-grandfather's name wasn't William?

As Jill mentioned, there was a Horatio T. / J. Dinnen in Hong Kong at around the time you are interested in. He was appointed as a Sanitary Inspector in 1886, and appears in the list of civil servants in the 1887 Blue Book. But he doesn't appear in the 1888 Blue Book or later years, suggesting he may have died or left Hong Kong.

Also, some families have a tradition of using the father's first name as their son's middle name, so I wondered if Horatio T. / J. Dinnen could have been the father of your grandfather William Horatio Dinnen?

Carl Smith Card 94969  mentions Horatio John Dinnen in connection with a mortgage in May 1881

UK Birth Index  Horatio John Dinnen registered 1846 St. George Southwark

As far as I know, there was no bar to a normal burial in the Colonial Cemetery for someone who died of malaria. If you have applied for a full General Search with the government immigration department and received a negative result, I think you can assume that your grandfather did not die in Hong Kong. I can't remember if you said you had already checked with the Land Registry as to what happened to the property that he owned. If the property passed to your great-grandmother at a particular date, that might give you something to work with.

(Stephen, I've moved your text over here to keep everything about your great grandfather on the same page.)

The only mass graves I can think of in Hong Kong were for the plague in the mid 1890s. I don't think there was any special treatment for people who died of malaria. 

1851 England Census

George H. Dinnen Head Male Age 30 Engineer Born Portsmouth, Hampshire, England

Mary A. Dinnen Wife Female Age 27 Laundress Born Lambeth, Surrey, England

Horatio J. Dinnen Son Male Age 5 Born London, England

Samuel Gilderday Cousin Male Age 30 Engineer Born Leeds, Yorkshire, England

Address: 5 Rodney Place

Civil Parish: St. Mary Newington

Ecclesiastical Parish: Trinity

County: Surrey

Registration District: Newington

Sub-registration District: Trinity

George Horatio Dinnen, bachelor, Engineer, married Mary Ann Clancy, Spinster, no listed occupation, on 29th January 1844 at the Parish Church of St Mark, Kennington, Surrey, England according to the Rites and Ceremonies of the Church of England by Banns by Joseph Ketley. They both lived at St Albans Road. His father was Andrew Dinnen, a Brass Founder. Her father was John Clancy, deceased. Witnesses were William Easter and Sarah Ann Wiggins. The marriage certificate was signed by both spouses - they were both literate. 

Still alive and living in Hong Kong in February 1888

Mr and Mrs Horatio Dinnen, of 110 Wanchai Road, in the Supreme Court of Hong Kong

Williams vs Dinnen 

Source: The China Mail, page 3, 14th February 1888, The China Mail, page 3, 15th February 1888 and Hong Kong Daily Press, page 2, 15th February 1888

Still alive and living in Hong Kong in March 1888

"THE ALLEGED INDECENT ASSAULT BY A SOLDIER"

Inspector Dinnen is mentioned by name in passing by the witness John Maxwell - please see his statement in Court at the lower end of column 3, page 3 of the China Mail 13th March 1888

Source: The China Mail, page 3, 13th March 1888

Still alive and living in Hong Kong in May 1888

Mr H.J. Dinnen, one of 3 Europeans, departed Hong Kong per Priam on 18th May 1888 for Singapore. The Priam's destination was ultimately London. 

Mrs Dinnen departed Singapore for London on the s.s. Clyde with a Mr Bratt on the 6th February 1890. 

It might be worth checking the Straits Times for a death notice of H.J. Dinnen if you have had a negative result from Hong Kong Immigration regarding a death certificate in Hong Kong. One of my relatives left his family in Hong Kong to take up a job in Singapore and died there. His death notice appeared in the Straits Times. I think he must have sent money home to support his wife and children.

Is this not the Horatio J. Dinnen who was aged 5 at the time of the 1851 census?

Additionally, can you remind us if you have applied for a search for his death certificate  in Hong Kong if this is the story that has been handed down?

I had the same problem of the online form crashing when I put in my UK phone number. Maybe David or another Gwulo contributor could “lend” you their phone number. Or perhaps you could simply enter a hotel’s phone number. Anyway worth waiting to see what solution they suggest. It is a fault of the form.

Found an earlier reference for H.J. Dinnen in 1874-1875

Already a Chief Engineer, Governor-General’s gunboat Peng-chao-hai in Canton

Source: page 88 (or digitised image 115) Chronicle and Directory for China, Japan and Philippines &c Hong Kong 1875

Going back a year earlier he was the second engineer on the same boat in the 1874 edition - which meant he was working on the boat in 1873

…but then a regular engineer in 1876 (see page 87 or digitised image 100 and page 247 or digitised image 262) on the same boat in Canton

Let’s go further back in time. In the 1873 edition he was the 2nd engineer of the Governor General’s gunboat ‘Sun-chi’ in Canton (see pages 86 and 242)

He is not mentioned in the 1872, 1870, 1869 or 1868 editions although the reporting of the assault case in 1886 mentioned that he knew the crew member in question since 1870, suggesting they may already be plying the China coast then or had set out from the UK together about then.

"Per Albay, str. from Taiwanfoo and Amoy.- Dr. Myers and child, and Mr. Dinnen, and 5 Chinese." 

Source: Hong Kong Daily Press, page 1, 20th October 1882 

"Per Albay, str., from Taiwanfoo, &c.- Dr. Myers and child, and Mr. Dinnen." 

Source: The Hong Kong Telegraph, page 4, 20th October 1882

Stephen - I had recourse to the post for all my applications. In those days it needed a banker’s draft. Why don’t you ask them if they will accept a credit card number? I think this is now possible online.

This hitch must be a common problem for applications from abroad. Does anyone have any tips for Stephen?

Stephen - the email address for the immigration department that you have given above isn't quite right. It should be gro@immd.gov.hk not gro@lmmd.gov.hk

In case it is useful, here is an email that I had from them after reporting a problem I had had with their site in 2016:

We have consulted our technical staff on your queries and was advised the following:

The problem you encounter may due to the incompatibility of Adobe Reader or Browser you used. The online service currently supports Microsoft Internet Explorer, Firefox and Safari Browsers. The Chrome browser and Microsoft Edge browser are currently NOT supported.

Please use Microsoft Internet Explorer, Firefox or Safari to access online services and Adobe Reader to open and fill in the electronic form in the browser.

You may refer to the Demonstration of Application for Search of Record of Birth in Hong Kong via the link below:-
       https://webapp2.immd.gov.hk/content_ogcio/bdm/html/english/bdm_birthrecordsearch_demo.html

For detailed system requirements, please refer to the FAQ link below:-
       https://webapp.immd.gov.hk/content_ogcio/bdm/html/english/bdm_submission_faq_page1.html#Q7

If you still encounter problem in filling the electronic form, grateful if you could provide the following information to facilitate our further investigation:-

1. Adobe Reader information
2. Browser information
3. Screen capture of the page embedding the PDF within the browser / screen capture when opening the PDF form
4. Saved PDF form

I hope you will find the above information useful.  If you need further assistance in using the online service, please call the Immigration e-Services Hotline at (852) 3128 8668 between 7am to 11pm (local time) daily.

Hi Stephen I’m in the UK so can’t help with local application. Try what Jill suggested - it should work. I’ve applied for various documents from the UK and paid by bank transfer and had no problems in the past.

Stephen, this is really important. If you say the 1851 census Horatio J. Dinnen is the “wrong” Dinnen, how did you reach that conclusion? I am assuming you have the copy of the death certificate of the Horatio Dinnen who died in the first quarter of 1859 in St. Olave, Southwark, London - if so, what did the death certificate say? 

Stephen, if there is a second H.J. Dinnen, can you make a page for the one who you say "died very young", even if you have to leave birth and death dates blank. Also his relationship to the other H.J. Dinnen. At the moment I believe you hope to obtain the death certificate of your great-grandfather, Horatio J. Dinnen, who went to Singapore, and a birth certificate of your grandfather, William Dinnen. In your 3rd August post you mention looking for birth records for your great-great grandfather, H.J. Dinnen. Did you mean "great-grandfather"? If you can tell us the story that has been handed down to you and its source with the "new details", it will prevent Gwulo readers getting confused. From the above posts the sequence of Dinnens seems George>>Horatio J. >>William. Please correct if I am missing one. I'm puzzled about the Horatio Dinnen who died in 1859 and his relationship to you.

Please also let us know if you are successful in submitting your search forms to the Birth, Marriages & Deaths department or if you manage to get an answer to your queries by email/phone.

So we have two Dinnen families: 1) Horatio John Dinnen (b. Cork) m. Mary Ann? >>William Dinnen (1887-1966) b. Hong Kong >> William Horatio Hutcheon Dinnen (your father)>>you

2) George Horatio Dinnen (1821-1859) m. Mary Ann >>Horatio John Dinnen (1846-1859) b. Southwark

You write: "william horatio dinnen born 1887 in kowloon hong kong was my grandfather. The first record i have of him is on the census of 1891 with his mother mary ann dinnen. My grandad was aged 4 on this."

Did George (UK) and Horatio (HK) then both marry ladies called Mary Ann? You say one is on the 1851 census and the other 1891.

In addition, can you tell us who led you to believe that your great-grandfather, Horatio, died in Hong Kong?

Thank you, Stephen for answering my questions. I have had a similar problem with three members of my Hong Kong family all having the same name. I have had quite a tussle with Births, Marriages and Deaths as a result. At least your Horatio Dinnens were in different countries.

I don't know if you have had a negative result to your enquiry with the Catholic cemetery. My protestant grandfather converted to Roman Catholicism while he was in Hong Kong and is buried in St. Michael's. Many of his professional equals and his social circle were Irish. St Joseph's Church wasn't as class conscious as St. John's and must have been more welcoming.

The story that your great-grandfather died of malaria and is buried at Happy Valley is highly credible and may be true. The trouble is that our grandparents' generation often passed on the most acceptable story. To give you certainty I do hope that you are successful in your search for a death certificate, either in Hong Kong or Singapore.

Do you think you have enough information to create a page for your Scottish great-grandmother, Mary Ann Dillen née Killah? You may be surprised at what other more experienced contributors than me can find out about her.

Aha.

This is where I throw a spanner in the works.

It is imperative Stephen that you obtain a copy of the death certificate for the Horatio Dinnen who died in the first quarter of 1859 (notice the name is not Horatio J. Dinnen). Because that Horatio Dinnen who died was…

….40 years old, born circa 1819.

He was buried at St Giles, Camberwell, Surrey, England on the 29th January 1859 - I have a copy of the burial register.  Literally a stone’s throw away from the registration district of St Olave, Southwark, London, the death registration of Horatio Dinnen registered in the first quarter of 1859.

In a nutshell, the Horatio J. Dinnen from the 1851 census is in fact your great grandfather - which means he was born in 1846 - you can get a birth certificate. And George H. Dinnen, engineer, was your ggrandfather.

Your spanner has jammed my brain, David! - but may I submit a temporary interpretation of the above as a framework for discussion. The only way I could work it out was to place George Horatio Dinnen as Stephen's great-great grandfather. Stephen, what was the full name of your father?

Here goes:

GGGF George Horatio Dinnen(1821-1859) m. Mary Ann Clancy 1844 >>GGF Horatio J. Dinnen 1846-? >>GF William Horatio Dinnen b. Kowloon, 1887?-?  >>? Dinnen>> Stephen Dinnen

(George would have been 25 when Horatio John was born. Horatio would have been 41 when William was born.)

 Horatio Dinnen (b. Southwark, London; d. Camberwell, Surrey)  c.1819-1859 (no relation of the above)

Burial record of Horatio Dinnen 29th January 1859 on familysearch.org (free) and also in ancestry.com (pay). Ancestry.com has the image of the burial register.

Another interesting find of your greatgrandfather H.J. Dinnen - he evidently did return to the UK sometime in 1883/1884 as he sailed back to the Far East from Liverpool in October 1884.

Let us know when you receive the certificates!