I'm still trying to figure out the location of the HKFP photos. But I'm unfamiliar with the area. Google Maps\Earth images are not that up to date so might take a while.
from the angle and surrounding graves it looks as though it is somewhere just between the grave and the semi circular scrape in the hillside - paste this into google chrome:https://earth.app.goo.gl/R9pXZ
So I think the marker in this node needs to be moved a fair bit - unless it isn't PB208 they've found...we need Rob's expert eye to say yay or nay.
Thanks for the link. I was able to identify the elevator shaft at the junction, as well as a few towers of the Shui Chun O Estate. Together with your link that would put the ruins quite high up, close to the Power lines at the ridge.
According to the GeoInfo Map site, that would be over the 200 m contour line. That would be approximate a bit under 1000m to the former coast line. The HKFP piece mentioned Indian soldiers were shooting up a sampan of Japanese in disguide and foiled their approach. The Sampan was damaged. I wonder what was the effective range of the machine guns in used by the pillboxes in the area. Guess we need opinions from gun\amunition experts. That spot looked like a bit too far away from the coast.
T
ps
Poked through Wiki a bit and found the common machine gun used by British troops are likely the Vickers with .303 amunition. Seemed to be in execellent range at this possible spot of about 1000m from the shore or the stream.
Might as well just go and take a look and take some GPS reading. Some other local hikers had already been going on similar routes from Sha Tim Wai to a place called Fo Dau Ping just a little bit to the west of the ruins.
Time for an arguement. I don't believe PB 208 has been "rediscovered". My research indicates it is correctly marked on the map - give or take a few metres, and is now under an apartment block in Shui Chuen O Estate.
As far as it firing on boats in Tide Cove in 1941, I think there were other PB's more suitably placed. The Mainland Brigade War Diary states that PB 205 fired on them, and the Rajput War Diary states PB 210 did. Whether it is confused entries, or whether they both did, is unknown, however they were both far closer to Tide Cove.
PB 210 does not appear on the map as I could not place it with any degree of accuracy, however it was on the eastern side of what was then Wong Uk Island (Yuen Chau Kok) probably facing across a section of Tide Cove towards Ma On Shan.
I concur - looking at the japanese map in the article, it seems to be quite clear that 214 is the identity. 208 is almost directly south of Yuen Chau Kok and 214 further south west, as shown on the map.
I am considering going up there from Tze Wan Shan and see if I could have some fun on this. Maybe even trying to locate the ruins of PB215 as well. According to Rob's markers PB215 should just be a bit off the Wilson Trail. But older Sat photos showed that area was much overgrown. Owing to the temperature Snake\bug hazzards is reduced but that area may also have a monkey population. At least I have seen some up the slopes of Tze Wan Shan. They may be a problem.
To have a better comparison while on maps, maybe switching to the 1952 All maps could have a better idea.
May be a help if looking for 215. On left side of Wilson Trail roughly 800m from Shatin Pass you might see the collapsed entry tunnel to 215, which sits on a slight rise above the trail. You can (could) follow the collapse almost to the remains of the PB. There is not a lot remaining, seems to have been partly re-covered by a land-slip at some stage.
Unrelated to PB 208, but Rob mentioned the Mainland Brigade War Diary and the Rajput War Diary. Where does one access war diaries like these from the Battle of Hong Kong?
The War Diaries I refer to are held at the National Archives Public Records Office at Kew, on the outskirts of London UK. Some copies of the same documents are held at the Hong Kong Public Records Building in Kwun Tong. Unfortunately, none appear to be digitised at either place, so are not available online.
Sorry guys I was looking at the Japanese map and thought it was 208 - yes, this one is 214. Thanks a lot for pointing that out. I re-read these entries because me and my team is making an interactive map about the battle of Hong Kong - we hope to finish this by December 2021, the 80th anniversary of the Battle of Hong Kong!
On a 2D map, the line between these two dots are short. But if you count the contour lines....... That's something else to consider. OTOH PB207 is much higher than PB208.
The interactive map appeared to be dated 1945. If that is the case it would be using imperial system for distance and height.
Comments
pillbox 208
possible remains have been discovered after a hillfire.
https://www.hongkongfp.com/2018/01/28/pictures-wartime-guard-post-battl…
Re: Location of the HKFP photos
Hi Phil,
I'm still trying to figure out the location of the HKFP photos. But I'm unfamiliar with the area. Google Maps\Earth images are not that up to date so might take a while.
T
location
from the angle and surrounding graves it looks as though it is somewhere just between the grave and the semi circular scrape in the hillside - paste this into google chrome:https://earth.app.goo.gl/R9pXZ
So I think the marker in this node needs to be moved a fair bit - unless it isn't PB208 they've found...we need Rob's expert eye to say yay or nay.
Re: PB208?
Hi Phil,
Thanks for the link. I was able to identify the elevator shaft at the junction, as well as a few towers of the Shui Chun O Estate. Together with your link that would put the ruins quite high up, close to the Power lines at the ridge.
According to the GeoInfo Map site, that would be over the 200 m contour line. That would be approximate a bit under 1000m to the former coast line. The HKFP piece mentioned Indian soldiers were shooting up a sampan of Japanese in disguide and foiled their approach. The Sampan was damaged. I wonder what was the effective range of the machine guns in used by the pillboxes in the area. Guess we need opinions from gun\amunition experts. That spot looked like a bit too far away from the coast.
T
ps
Poked through Wiki a bit and found the common machine gun used by British troops are likely the Vickers with .303 amunition. Seemed to be in execellent range at this possible spot of about 1000m from the shore or the stream.
Re: PB208?
Hi There,
Might as well just go and take a look and take some GPS reading. Some other local hikers had already been going on similar routes from Sha Tim Wai to a place called Fo Dau Ping just a little bit to the west of the ruins.
T
PB 208
Time for an arguement. I don't believe PB 208 has been "rediscovered". My research indicates it is correctly marked on the map - give or take a few metres, and is now under an apartment block in Shui Chuen O Estate.
As far as it firing on boats in Tide Cove in 1941, I think there were other PB's more suitably placed. The Mainland Brigade War Diary states that PB 205 fired on them, and the Rajput War Diary states PB 210 did. Whether it is confused entries, or whether they both did, is unknown, however they were both far closer to Tide Cove.
PB 210 does not appear on the map as I could not place it with any degree of accuracy, however it was on the eastern side of what was then Wong Uk Island (Yuen Chau Kok) probably facing across a section of Tide Cove towards Ma On Shan.
possibly PB 214?
The location seems to coincide (almost exactly) with your entry for PB214 (https://gwulo.com/node/15603), so I suspect it is that one instead.
Re: PB214....
Hi Rob,
Looked it up again and found PB214 is more or less around the location mentioned by the HKFP piece.
T
I concur
I concur - looking at the japanese map in the article, it seems to be quite clear that 214 is the identity. 208 is almost directly south of Yuen Chau Kok and 214 further south west, as shown on the map.
Re: 214....
Hi Phil,
I am considering going up there from Tze Wan Shan and see if I could have some fun on this. Maybe even trying to locate the ruins of PB215 as well. According to Rob's markers PB215 should just be a bit off the Wilson Trail. But older Sat photos showed that area was much overgrown. Owing to the temperature Snake\bug hazzards is reduced but that area may also have a monkey population. At least I have seen some up the slopes of Tze Wan Shan. They may be a problem.
To have a better comparison while on maps, maybe switching to the 1952 All maps could have a better idea.
T
PB 214 * 215
May be a help if looking for 215. On left side of Wilson Trail roughly 800m from Shatin Pass you might see the collapsed entry tunnel to 215, which sits on a slight rise above the trail. You can (could) follow the collapse almost to the remains of the PB. There is not a lot remaining, seems to have been partly re-covered by a land-slip at some stage.
Spotted an older photo of the area
Hi There,
Spotted an older photo of the area from the ridge towards Yat Ming Estate and Yuen Chau Kok.
T
Where does one find the war diaries?
Unrelated to PB 208, but Rob mentioned the Mainland Brigade War Diary and the Rajput War Diary. Where does one access war diaries like these from the Battle of Hong Kong?
Thanks in advance!
War Diaries
The War Diaries I refer to are held at the National Archives Public Records Office at Kew, on the outskirts of London UK. Some copies of the same documents are held at the Hong Kong Public Records Building in Kwun Tong. Unfortunately, none appear to be digitised at either place, so are not available online.
Stand corrected...
Sorry guys I was looking at the Japanese map and thought it was 208 - yes, this one is 214. Thanks a lot for pointing that out. I re-read these entries because me and my team is making an interactive map about the battle of Hong Kong - we hope to finish this by December 2021, the 80th anniversary of the Battle of Hong Kong!
Per https://digital.lib.hkbu
Per https://digital.lib.hkbu.edu.hk/1941hkbattle/en/map.php , it is PB209 instead? and 208 should be bit close to 207?
Re: PB 207\208
Hi There,
On a 2D map, the line between these two dots are short. But if you count the contour lines....... That's something else to consider. OTOH PB207 is much higher than PB208.
The interactive map appeared to be dated 1945. If that is the case it would be using imperial system for distance and height.
T