In the Web

Submitted by anonymous-01 on Tue, 08/09/2011 - 17:19

I have been searching in vain for some time now for a copy of Peter Hall's book In the Web.

I am interested in the book of course, but also want to know whether there is any mention in it of my great grandfather John Olson who married Ching Ah Fung in the early 1890s and had four children with her.

If any Gwulo addict has a copy of the book I would appreciate them having a quick scan through the index! Any info would be appreciated.

Sean

Sorry, No Olsen:

 

O'Neill, Norman, 84

Overbeck, Gustav von, 32, 119

 

And yes, Shyama , I still have your copy and am only just now able to transcribe it to Geni.  Thanks for the extended loan.

(http://www.elizabethsbookshop.com.au/ is on the back).

 

by the way Sean, I looked up "Ching Ah Fung" on Geni and came up with two trees, and neither is managed by you:

http://www.geni.com/people/Ah-Fung-Jakobsson/6000000003631464023

http://www.geni.com/people/Ching-Ah-Fung-aka-Ellen-Olson/60000000134007…

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Submitted by
Jaberu
on
Tue, 08/09/2011 - 20:17

Sean - During the Japanese occupation of HK I knew a family with the surname Olsen. The father was not present, and had probably left HK before the war.  There were two boys in their early 20s, one of whom was named Alex. Two girls in their late teens were Ellen and Svea.  A third girl named Hilda was about 15, and the youngest in the family was Charlie, aged about 10. Their mother was Korean.

Any relation?

Hi Annelisec, you mention: "Overbeck, Gustav von, 32, 119". How to get these informations? Could not find Overbeck on Geni. He is important to me as Vice-Consul of Prussia in Hong Kong from 1856-1866 and copartner of Dent & Overbeck Company.

Hi Jaberu,

Afraid your Olsen family not related to my Olson family. My lot left for the UK in 1923 and returned only rarely and were certainly not there during the Second World War.

Funny they had a Charlie. My father was Charles Olson and he had an uncle called Charles Olson. The uncle left about 1928/9 and ended his days in Vancouver.

My father was killed in a Lancaster in 1943.

Thanks for the help.

Sean

Thanks for the info regarding Geni. The first profile is managed by my cousin Juliet Olson the second is managed by somebody I have never heard of called Stuart Preddy.

Tried putting a profile up myself but the site kept crashing and coming back and eventually I stopped and pulled the plug. Any idea how I find out who Stuart Preddy is?

Thanks also for the info about In the Web. Though old John might have made it there. Anyhow that's another book to cross off my list.

Sean

 

Sean, you most likely already know that John Olson entered the Diocesan Boys' School in 1893, and Charles Wm. Olson entered in 1896. John Olson passed the Junior Oxford Local Examination in 1898 and Charles Wm. in 1901.  Charles Wm. also passed the Hong Kong University Matriculation Examination in 1914.

The school was previously known as the Diocesan Home and Orphanage (from 1869) and took in boys and girls.  Elizabeth A. Olson and Hannah M. Olson entered this school in 1889.

Hi, Jaberu.

Regarding the Diocesan Boys' School entries, I'm curious to know where you got the information. Is it from Rev. W. T. Featherstone's book? From what I understand, the school registers were lost during the Japanese occupation and the only comparable source still available today is Featherstone's, which is kept in the Central Library. I'd like to know if my great grandfather, who was Eurasian, went to school there.

Thanks,

GC

The answer to your question, GC,  is "yes".  Let me know your great grandfather's name and I'll see if I can find it.

Hi Jaberu,

Thanks for the info most of which I do know from Carl Smith. However I did not know that my great uncle Charles sat, let alone passed, the HK University Matriculation Examination in 1914.

I wonder why and if you have any ideas as by that stage he was working for Thoresen and Co.

Am I correct in thinking that it was somewhat unusual for girls to have been sent to school in the way Hannah and Elizabeth were at that time as it was an expensive business in those days?

Hannah and Elizabeth were, by the way, half sisters.

Again thanks for your help. All snippets are greatfully and greedily received!

Sean

Thanks, Jaberu.

As far as I know, he only had Chinese names: Chan Fook Hing as a child and later on Chan Hon Key as a business name. His English surname was Mackenzie/McKenzie. The period would be between 1855 and 1871.

GC

Sean I also noticed the late 1914 date.  The only explanation I can think of is that he sat the exam as a "mature" student some years after leaving school. The name in the list is C.W.Olson but I don't think there is any doubt this was Charles Wm.

Many of the girls who entered the Diocesan Home and Orphanage paid either reduced fees or no fees.

Thanks Jaberu,

Not sure what great uncle Charlie was at. He was the blacksheep of the family as I underdsstand it. He was left in charge of my grandfather's businesses in 1923 when my grandfather took the family to the UK but I know that in 1926 my granfather, John 2, had to make an emergency trip out to HK to sort things out. Family law says it cost him $96,000 which I think was a lot of money then.

Shortly after that Charlie styled himself as a broker and was living in what I think was my grandfather's house at 13 Broadwood Road until about 1927/28 when he went to the US. Eventually died in Naniamo, Vancouver in 1966.

For your next trick can you get rid of the chicago spammer? For one exciting moment I thought somebody was going to tell me something about my great grandfather's comprador who I am enquiring about. No such luck just idiot spammer.

Thanks again.

Sean

Afraid not, GC.  The lists for the early years are incomplete. In fact there is only one name for 1870 and one name for 1873 - no names for the two years in between.

Incidentally, I am interested in your ancestor Mackenzie. Can you tell me anything about him like his full name and his work?

Sure, why not? The more help I can get, the better!

This is the information that I have about him so far:

- Born in 1855, died in Hong Kong in 1942. Attended Central School under the name Chan Fook Hing and won 2 prizes, one in 1871 and another in 1874.

- As far as I know, he did not have an English first name but his surname was Mackenzie. I know this because his younger sister was named Mary Mackenzie (from grave inscription), who was born in Shanghai in 1861 and married a Eurasian named Hung Kam Ning or Henry Graham Anderson (former HK Supreme Court interpreter and grandfather of former LegCo and ExCo member Catherine Joyce Symons). Mary's Chinese name was Chan Lai Kau, according to Carl Smith's records. She was buried in St. Michael's Cemetery.

- In his professional life, Chan Fook Hing assumed the name Chan Hon Key/Honkey. He is listed in the 1907 Juror's List as manager of Ip On Co. Apparently the business involved a hotel named Ip On Hotel.

Then from 1915 to 1921, he is listed as manager of Union Trading Co., an import-export venture. He was a partner in the company with Major Samuel Macomber Churn, also a Eurasian. In 1923, he is listed as chief assistant of Banker and Co. And from 1924-26, he is listed as manager of Oriental Overseas Co.

The difficulty in finding out who his Scottish father and Chinese mother were lies in the fact that birth certificates in HK were not required by law until the 1870s.

I also have not been able to find out from family members his wedding dates (he was married twice), though I assume that a simple name search in the Marriage Registry might be able to produce something by the off chance (a bit haphazard?). I have not searched for a death certificate as yet.

The school registers for Central School were destroyed during the Japanese occupation, so that avenue is blocked. Which is why I thought he might have attended the Diocesan Orphanage prior to 1871 (now confirmed by you that he was not registered there).

He was buried in the Chinese Christian Cemetery in Diamond Hill, which presumes that he would have been baptized earlier, so perhaps a search through baptismal registers might help (however, the church where he would have been baptized remains a mystery). Do you know if that cemetery attended to Protestants only or accepted any Chinese who were baptized as Christians?

As far as I know, he was not a member of any associations, though it's possible that he might have been a member of the Chinese Club, which many Eurasian merchants who identified themselves as Chinese belonged to. Does this club allow public access to its records/registers?

As to who the original Mackenzie might have been, I have compiled quite a lot of information from online research to form a shortlist of candidates who were living in Canton/HK and Shanghai around the dates that Chan Honkey and his sister were born, and have located a few wills kept at the National Archives in London, which I will be ordering. So that remains my best hope at this stage. However, the prospects are a bit slim.

The candidates are:

Canton: - Donald William (D.W.) Mackenzie and Samuel Mackenzie (both did not leave wills in China)

Shanghai: - James, David and Robert Mackenzie of Mackenzie & Co.; - K.R. and C.D. Mackenzie of Mackenzie, Bros & Co.; and William Mackenzie (Most left wills in Shanghai).  

Any suggestions for further research or information about him that you or anyone else reading this might come across would be most appreciated.

GC

Many thanks, GC. You have already succeeded in finding a mass of information. I shall certainly let you know of anything I come across. Meanwhile, you may wish to ponder this oddity.  The oft-quoted book "In the Web" confirms that Henry Graham Anderson was married to a Mary Mackenzie.   But in another family tree the book shows that there was a Hugh Anderson who was also married to a Mary daughter of a man named Mackenzie.  Now Henry Graham Anderson had a son named Hugh. If it is the same Hugh, it seems most odd that the father and the son were both married to Mary Mackenzie's.

Further, the Mary married to Hugh Anderson is shown to have an unnamed brother who was married twice.  Was this brother perhaps Chan Hon Key? Is there perhaps a mix up of generations?

Reviewing the dates:

Mary (nee Makenzie) - b. 1861 in Shanghai
Fook Hing Chan - b. 1855

Hugh Anderson - b. 1887

 

This is what "In the Web" - p 178  tree shows. 

  --- Mary (m. Hugh Anderson)
Chan ...  
... Mackenzie     (m. Chan Yuk Ching) --- Albert & Daisy
  --- ???
      (m.  ... nee Soares) --- Lucy May & Elsie

p 167 shows:

 Mary (nee Mackenzie)

1861-1941

  --- Hugh
 Henry Graham Anderson (Hung Kam Ning)

 --- 13 othe

rs
   
   

Jaberu,

I know about this seeming oddity. There were in fact two "Hughes" - father and son. Chan Hon Key is the unnamed brother, yes. I've been in touch with Peter Hall and have given him the correct information so it will be in the 2nd edition. The original had a lot of errors in it as it had been 2nd or 3rd sourced. Through Gwulo.com, Liz Chater very kindly put me in touch with Peter, which has been great. I believe it's scheduled to come out in November.

Are you part of the "Web" as well? And if so, how so?

Hi, Annelisec.

Could you change his name to Hon Key Chan, as that was the name he was more known for? Also, I have no proof that the Chinese woman that the Mackenzie "protected" had Chan as her surname so it would be best to leave that as ???

Chan Hon Key's wives were Lam Ah Tse (b 1863 d 1899) and Tai Yuk Ching (b 1876 d 1955).

GC

You have me thoroughly confused, GC. But not to worry. It will all get clearer.

You mentioned a connection between Chan Hon Key and S.M.Churn.  In Eric Ho's history of the Welfare League he describes a meeting held on 23rd December, 1929 attended by a number of Eurasians to set up the League as a charitable society to assist destitute Eurasians.  Among those present were S.M.Churn and a man named J.McKenzie. All those who were present were members of well-known families, and their names keep cropping up in connection with the League, with the exception of McKenzie whose name drops away and he is not mentioned again.  I wonder if this was Chan Hon Key and whether he attended this first inaugural meeting on the encouragement of his partner Churn? 

Shall we add Hon Key Chan's children?  Then their descendents who visit Geni may have more information for you.

 

Can you set me straight on the "two Hughs".?

As to the new book, Liz told us it was due out last November, and yet nothing as yet.   ...   That is why I started the tree on Geni.  It won't detract from the second edition because it is not the genealogies that are interesting, it is the stories he tells.

Jaberu and annelisec,

My mistake. There was only one Hugh Anderson - the son, who died in 1922.

The father is Henry Graham Anderson.

The last time I emailed Peter, which was in May/June, he said he was aiming for November 2011.

Thanks for the Geni tip. I think I'll set up an account and then link to what you've posted.

GC

Jaberu,

That's an interesting suggestion. I have seen that name in Eric Ho's book and wondered as well. It's possible that Chan Hon Key might have had an English name which he used occasionally late in life. By 1929, he would have been 74 yrs old and possibly retired.

This kind of name switching occurred with Henry Graham Anderson who, up until he retired from the government in the mid to late 1890s, was known publicly as Hung Kam Ning. Not uncommon among 1st generation Eurasians who navigated between identities throughout their lives.

Perhaps someone at the Welfare League might be able to track down the full name of J. Mckenzie? If you have any tips, let me know.

GC

Peter Hall has advised that he is on the final stages of production. The charts are complete and other documents are now ready for printing. Back cover design yet to be done but shouldn't take too long and he hopes that the book proof will be with his publisher next month.  The project is taking longer than he thought, but he sounds positive things are moving in the right direction.

Sean, he hasn't forgotten you and will be in touch in due course.

Best wishes

Liz

GC, go to the last paragraph on page 15 of Eric Ho's "Tracing My Children's Lineage" , and compare it with Appendix 14 of Peter Hall's "In the Web". This confirms that the unnamed son of Mackenzie and Chan in Appendix 14 was Chan Hon Key. Unfortunately, it does not give his English proper name, if he had one.  The  names of Chan Hon Key's two wives which you have given us are also at variance with the names given by Peter Hall of Chan Yuk Ching and Soares.

 

Yes, as I mentioned before, the 1st edition of In The Web had a lot of errors in it because Peter had not been able to get first-hand information at the time, understandable as Peter is not closely related to my branch of the family. He told me he had always wanted people to contact him after the book's publication so as to add or correct anything (which I and a few others have since done). So I would not consider the 1st edition an accurate source on the Chan/Mackenzie branch - the updated edition, on the other hand, will be accurate.

Eric Ho's book used information that my family had passed on to him, so it is accurate.

GC

Note from Andrew Tse:

Peter wrote: Swindon's has an account with Gardner Books who are worldwide distributors of books.  Orders for more than one book can be ordered via Swindon's.  Single books can be ordered via   www.countyvise.co.uk

If you need to contact Peter, please drop me a line.

andrew.tse@me.com

Andrew