Horatio J DINNEN [????-????]

Submitted by stephen dinnen on Fri, 12/09/2022 - 17:22
Names
Given
Horatio J
Family
Dinnen
Sex
Male
Status
Deceased
Died
Died in (country)
Hong Kong
Cause of death
Malaria

This page is for my great-grandfather, William Dinnen.

His son, my grandfather william h h dinnen was born hong kong in 1887 in kowloon i have found his mother mary dinnen living in hong kong they then showed up on a uk census 1891 but no record of my great grandfather i beleive he was buried in happy valley as he died of maleria in hong kong between 1887 and 1891 his name was william dinnen but i cant find no records in forgotten souls please can anyone help me kind regards stephen dinnen


Possibly Catholic?

Submitted by jill on Thu, 12/08/2022 - 21:41

Is there any chance that your great grandfather was buried in St Michael's Catholic Cemetery in Happy Valley? On the other hand, there are some graves missing from Patricia Lim's website, especially where the names are very corroded. It might be worth contacting the Office of the Colonial Cemetery direct. They have a pretty comprehensive record of all the graves. The same is true of St Michael's Cemetery.


william dinnen

Submitted by stephen dinnen on Thu, 12/08/2022 - 23:40

Thanks for reply jill i have looked under catholic records but i know my family were protestant ill try contacting the office of colonial cemetry

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Comments

If you have no joy from the Cemetery office, Stephen, a very reliable source of information on the graves in the Colonial Cemetery is the researcher, Christine Thomas. Whereas Patricia Lim catalogued the surviving inscriptions, Christine transcribed all the grave records from the card index at the office. She has helped me to find a relative not recorded on the Lim website. She is happy to be contacted on her professional email address twiglet.thomas@myself.com by anyone who has a query about the graveyard - or indeed any Hong Kong related enquiry.

Stephen, Is there any chance your great-grandfather's name wasn't William?

As Jill mentioned, there was a Horatio T. / J. Dinnen in Hong Kong at around the time you are interested in. He was appointed as a Sanitary Inspector in 1886, and appears in the list of civil servants in the 1887 Blue Book. But he doesn't appear in the 1888 Blue Book or later years, suggesting he may have died or left Hong Kong.

Also, some families have a tradition of using the father's first name as their son's middle name, so I wondered if Horatio T. / J. Dinnen could have been the father of your grandfather William Horatio Dinnen?

Carl Smith Card 94969  mentions Horatio John Dinnen in connection with a mortgage in May 1881

UK Birth Index  Horatio John Dinnen registered 1846 St. George Southwark

Things have changed recently more info has come to light and i now beleive horatio j dinnen was my great grandfather and the father of william horatio dinnen thank you to everyone who has helped god bless you all

I was led to beleive from my father that my great grandfather Horatio J Dinnen died from maleria and was buried in the happy valley cemetary in hong kong i have looked at numerous records to no avail does anybody know if someone who contacted maleria was buried or cremated in the normal way or could there have been mass graves as i know maleria was rife in hong kong in the 1880s/90s any info would be gratefully appreciate kind regars stephen dinnen

As far as I know, there was no bar to a normal burial in the Colonial Cemetery for someone who died of malaria. If you have applied for a full General Search with the government immigration department and received a negative result, I think you can assume that your grandfather did not die in Hong Kong. I can't remember if you said you had already checked with the Land Registry as to what happened to the property that he owned. If the property passed to your great-grandmother at a particular date, that might give you something to work with.

(Stephen, I've moved your text over here to keep everything about your great grandfather on the same page.)

The only mass graves I can think of in Hong Kong were for the plague in the mid 1890s. I don't think there was any special treatment for people who died of malaria. 

This is what i have on my great grandfather Horatio J Dinnen so far

1876 -1879  listed under foreign resident engineer on custom cruiser pen chan hai

1881 mortgage inland lot from carl smith records card no 94969

1882 he was a 3rd engineer on the fei hoo

1885 marriage in new south wales australia

1886 dismissed from customs due to assault on crew member

1886 new position as inspector of nuisances

1887 my grandfather william horatio born hong kong

1888 inspector of nuisances still listed as being in hong kong

 

1851 England Census

George H. Dinnen Head Male Age 30 Engineer Born Portsmouth, Hampshire, England

Mary A. Dinnen Wife Female Age 27 Laundress Born Lambeth, Surrey, England

Horatio J. Dinnen Son Male Age 5 Born London, England

Samuel Gilderday Cousin Male Age 30 Engineer Born Leeds, Yorkshire, England

 

Address: 5 Rodney Place

Civil Parish: St. Mary Newington

Ecclesiastical Parish: Trinity

County: Surrey

Registration District: Newington

Sub-registration District: Trinity

 

George Horatio Dinnen, bachelor, Engineer, married Mary Ann Clancy, Spinster, no listed occupation, on 29th January 1844 at the Parish Church of St Mark, Kennington, Surrey, England according to the Rites and Ceremonies of the Church of England by Banns by Joseph Ketley. They both lived at St Albans Road. His father was Andrew Dinnen, a Brass Founder. Her father was John Clancy, deceased. Witnesses were William Easter and Sarah Ann Wiggins. The marriage certificate was signed by both spouses - they were both literate. 

Still alive and living in Hong Kong in May 1888

Mr H.J. Dinnen, one of 3 Europeans, departed Hong Kong per Priam on 18th May 1888 for Singapore. The Priam's destination was ultimately London. 

H.J. Dinnen Overland China Mail page 12 2nd June 1888
H.J. Dinnen Overland China Mail page 12 2nd June 1888, by eurasian_david

eurasion david thank you so much for the information the top one is the wrong mr dinnen but the other articles are fantastic i have never been able to find this before and am very grateful for this info thank you so much kind sir

It might be worth checking the Straits Times for a death notice of H.J. Dinnen if you have had a negative result from Hong Kong Immigration regarding a death certificate in Hong Kong. One of my relatives left his family in Hong Kong to take up a job in Singapore and died there. His death notice appeared in the Straits Times. I think he must have sent money home to support his wife and children.

although i have loads of records of my great great grandfather im still unable to find any birth details or anything with his age on on any records can anyone help please

Is this not the Horatio J. Dinnen who was aged 5 at the time of the 1851 census?

Additionally, can you remind us if you have applied for a search for his death certificate  in Hong Kong if this is the story that has been handed down?

The above hj dinnen is not the correct one jill he passed away when very young i have tried getting a birth certificate for william horatio born 1887 hong kong and enquired about a death certificate for horatio john but cant get through the forms as they require a hk phone number i have contacted gro@lmmd.gov.hk with lots of infomation i have and are waiting on a reply

 

I had the same problem of the online form crashing when I put in my UK phone number. Maybe David or another Gwulo contributor could “lend” you their phone number. Or perhaps you could simply enter a hotel’s phone number. Anyway worth waiting to see what solution they suggest. It is a fault of the form.

Found an earlier reference for H.J. Dinnen in 1874-1875

Already a Chief Engineer, Governor-General’s gunboat Peng-chao-hai in Canton

Source: page 88 (or digitised image 115) Chronicle and Directory for China, Japan and Philippines &c Hong Kong 1875

Going back a year earlier he was the second engineer on the same boat in the 1874 edition - which meant he was working on the boat in 1873

…but then a regular engineer in 1876 (see page 87 or digitised image 100 and page 247 or digitised image 262) on the same boat in Canton

 

Let’s go further back in time. In the 1873 edition he was the 2nd engineer of the Governor General’s gunboat ‘Sun-chi’ in Canton (see pages 86 and 242)

He is not mentioned in the 1872, 1870, 1869 or 1868 editions although the reporting of the assault case in 1886 mentioned that he knew the crew member in question since 1870, suggesting they may already be plying the China coast then or had set out from the UK together about then.

Thank you david are you based in hong kong as im looking for someone to go to the offices for births and deaths in hong kong i have pretty much everything needed for my grandfathers birth certificate dob address both parents details but cant access it through the website as i have no hk phone number the other one im after is death certificate of hj dinnen but i have no birth records but seem to think he died hong kong between 1888 and 1890 i am willing to pay the fees required upront kind regards s dinnen

Stephen - I had recourse to the post for all my applications. In those days it needed a banker’s draft. Why don’t you ask them if they will accept a credit card number? I think this is now possible online.

This hitch must be a common problem for applications from abroad. Does anyone have any tips for Stephen?

 

 

Stephen - the email address for the immigration department that you have given above isn't quite right. It should be gro@immd.gov.hk not gro@lmmd.gov.hk

In case it is useful, here is an email that I had from them after reporting a problem I had had with their site in 2016:

We have consulted our technical staff on your queries and was advised the following:

The problem you encounter may due to the incompatibility of Adobe Reader or Browser you used. The online service currently supports Microsoft Internet Explorer, Firefox and Safari Browsers. The Chrome browser and Microsoft Edge browser are currently NOT supported.

Please use Microsoft Internet Explorer, Firefox or Safari to access online services and Adobe Reader to open and fill in the electronic form in the browser.

You may refer to the Demonstration of Application for Search of Record of Birth in Hong Kong via the link below:-
       https://webapp2.immd.gov.hk/content_ogcio/bdm/html/english/bdm_birthrecordsearch_demo.html

For detailed system requirements, please refer to the FAQ link below:-
       https://webapp.immd.gov.hk/content_ogcio/bdm/html/english/bdm_submission_faq_page1.html#Q7

If you still encounter problem in filling the electronic form, grateful if you could provide the following information to facilitate our further investigation:-

1. Adobe Reader information
2. Browser information
3. Screen capture of the page embedding the PDF within the browser / screen capture when opening the PDF form
4. Saved PDF form

I hope you will find the above information useful.  If you need further assistance in using the online service, please call the Immigration e-Services Hotline at (852) 3128 8668 between 7am to 11pm (local time) daily.

Hi Stephen I’m in the UK so can’t help with local application. Try what Jill suggested - it should work. I’ve applied for various documents from the UK and paid by bank transfer and had no problems in the past.

Stephen, this is really important. If you say the 1851 census Horatio J. Dinnen is the “wrong” Dinnen, how did you reach that conclusion? I am assuming you have the copy of the death certificate of the Horatio Dinnen who died in the first quarter of 1859 in St. Olave, Southwark, London - if so, what did the death certificate say? 

Stephen, if there is a second H.J. Dinnen, can you make a page for the one who you say "died very young", even if you have to leave birth and death dates blank. Also his relationship to the other H.J. Dinnen. At the moment I believe you hope to obtain the death certificate of your great-grandfather, Horatio J. Dinnen, who went to Singapore, and a birth certificate of your grandfather, William Dinnen. In your 3rd August post you mention looking for birth records for your great-great grandfather, H.J. Dinnen. Did you mean "great-grandfather"? If you can tell us the story that has been handed down to you and its source with the "new details", it will prevent Gwulo readers getting confused. From the above posts the sequence of Dinnens seems George>>Horatio J. >>William. Please correct if I am missing one. I'm puzzled about the Horatio Dinnen who died in 1859 and his relationship to you.

Please also let us know if you are successful in submitting your search forms to the Birth, Marriages & Deaths department or if you manage to get an answer to your queries by email/phone.

Sorry guys for the confusion william horatio dinnen born 1887 in kowloon hong kong was my grandfather. The first record i have of him is on the census of 1891 with his mother mary ann dinnen. My grandad was aged 4 on this. Iam now trying to get hold of his birth certificate.

horatio john dinnen i beleive was my great grandfather i have no birth records for him although im led to beleive he was born in cork i have various records of him in hong kong from 1871 to 1888. but cannot find no death records for him i was led to beleive he died of malaria and was buried at the happy valley cemetary but have never been able to find any records of this.

The other dinnens which i think are causing the confusion is a george horatio dinnen the father of horatio john dinnen. george was born in 1821 portsmouth hampshire he was then married in 1844 kennington surrey. horatio john dinnen was born in 1846 in southwark london to parents george horatio and mary ann dinnen all three do show up on the 1851 census at newington surrey. Then george horatio and his son horatio john were both buried in the same year 1859 at southwark london uk.

So even though i have no death certificates the assumption made that george horatio and horatio john cannot be related to the horatio john dinnen in hong kong as i have records of him from 1871 to 1888 and both of the other dinnens had passed in q1 1859. There are no other hj or horatio dinnen in uk english records. The above records are from familysearch i managed to obtain the marriage certificate from gro australia of the marriage of hj diinen to mary anne killah in 1885 this for me is further proof that i have the right hj dinnen i hope this provides improved clarity   and thanks david jill and gwulo for all your help and support regards stephen dinnen.

So we have two Dinnen families: 1) Horatio John Dinnen (b. Cork) m. Mary Ann? >>William Dinnen (1887-1966) b. Hong Kong >> William Horatio Hutcheon Dinnen (your father)>>you

2) George Horatio Dinnen (1821-1859) m. Mary Ann >>Horatio John Dinnen (1846-1859) b. Southwark

You write: "william horatio dinnen born 1887 in kowloon hong kong was my grandfather. The first record i have of him is on the census of 1891 with his mother mary ann dinnen. My grandad was aged 4 on this."

Did George (UK) and Horatio (HK) then both marry ladies called Mary Ann? You say one is on the 1851 census and the other 1891.

In addition, can you tell us who led you to believe that your great-grandfather, Horatio, died in Hong Kong?

For the response to jill about setting out the other dinnen details. The details i have on this Dinnen family appear not to be related in any way to my great grandfather horatio john dinnen.

These details are for george horatio dinnen born 1821, he married in 1844 a mary ann clancy in 1846 Q3 they had a son horatio john dinnen .

The death of both george horatio dinnen and horatio john dinnen was in march 1859 hope this helps

Hi jill the similarities are amazing my great grandfather william horatio born cork although i have no proof married a mary ann killah from scotland in 1885 in new south wales he then emerges back in hong kong in 1886 as inspector of nuisances hong kong.

The other Dinnen was a george horatio dinnen who married a mary ann clancy and had a son horatio john dinnen both father and son passed away in 1859 uk

george horatio is on a 1851 census uk with his wafy mary anne and horatio john aged 5

my great grandmother mary ann dinnen was on a 1891 census uk with my grandfather william horatio hutcheon age 4 but there is no listing of my great grandfather horatio john dinnen

The information that my great grand father died in hong kong was passed on to me by my own father robert william dinnen the son of william horatio dinnen he was told by his father that horatio john dinnen died of maleria and was buried in hong kong at happy valley my fathers sister also told me the same story sadly all the family have now passed away

Thank you, Stephen for answering my questions. I have had a similar problem with three members of my Hong Kong family all having the same name. I have had quite a tussle with Births, Marriages and Deaths as a result. At least your Horatio Dinnens were in different countries.

I don't know if you have had a negative result to your enquiry with the Catholic cemetery. My protestant grandfather converted to Roman Catholicism while he was in Hong Kong and is buried in St. Michael's. Many of his professional equals and his social circle were Irish. St Joseph's Church wasn't as class conscious as St. John's and must have been more welcoming.

The story that your great-grandfather died of malaria and is buried at Happy Valley is highly credible and may be true. The trouble is that our grandparents' generation often passed on the most acceptable story. To give you certainty I do hope that you are successful in your search for a death certificate, either in Hong Kong or Singapore.

Do you think you have enough information to create a page for your Scottish great-grandmother, Mary Ann Dillen née Killah? You may be surprised at what other more experienced contributors than me can find out about her.

Aha.

This is where I throw a spanner in the works.

It is imperative Stephen that you obtain a copy of the death certificate for the Horatio Dinnen who died in the first quarter of 1859 (notice the name is not Horatio J. Dinnen). Because that Horatio Dinnen who died was…

 

….40 years old, born circa 1819.

He was buried at St Giles, Camberwell, Surrey, England on the 29th January 1859 - I have a copy of the burial register.  Literally a stone’s throw away from the registration district of St Olave, Southwark, London, the death registration of Horatio Dinnen registered in the first quarter of 1859.

In a nutshell, the Horatio J. Dinnen from the 1851 census is in fact your great grandfather - which means he was born in 1846 - you can get a birth certificate. And George H. Dinnen, engineer, was your ggrandfather.

Your spanner has jammed my brain, David! - but may I submit a temporary interpretation of the above as a framework for discussion. The only way I could work it out was to place George Horatio Dinnen as Stephen's great-great grandfather. Stephen, what was the full name of your father?

Here goes:

GGGF George Horatio Dinnen(1821-1859) m. Mary Ann Clancy 1844 >>GGF Horatio J. Dinnen 1846-? >>GF William Horatio Dinnen b. Kowloon, 1887?-?  >>? Dinnen>> Stephen Dinnen

(George would have been 25 when Horatio John was born. Horatio would have been 41 when William was born.)

 Horatio Dinnen (b. Southwark, London; d. Camberwell, Surrey)  c.1819-1859 (no relation of the above)

Thank you david and also jill for your explaing i could not anser yesterday as my brain was gone.

If what david is saying is correct i will be the happiest man in the world but i am still not fully convinced so my next step is to order the death cerificates for horatio and for george horatio and finally the birth cerificate for horatio john that may take a week but cant wait for these.

I had previously found the birth record of horatio j dinnen in 1846 i also found the 1851 census of horatio j dinnen with his father george horatio head of family aged 30 and his wife mary ann dinnen formerly clancy aged 27 i then found the seath records of george horatio dinnen and horatio dinnen both on the same day 29th june 1859 so i assumed father and son had died and that was that.

But as david points out there is another horatio dinnen born 1819  george was born 1821 and horatio j was born 1846 and the two deaths are horatio and george in 1859 can i ask you david where you found the info on the horatio dinnen.

im now thinking the horatio and the george who died in 1859  on the same day same year are the same person as george had the middle name horatio its so confusing but i will comment further as soon as im able to get the certification required thanks once again to david and jill for your continued support and hope and pray davids assumption is correct

Burial record of Horatio Dinnen 29th January 1859 on familysearch.org (free) and also in ancestry.com (pay). Ancestry.com has the image of the burial register.

Another interesting find of your greatgrandfather H.J. Dinnen - he evidently did return to the UK sometime in 1883/1884 as he sailed back to the Far East from Liverpool in October 1884.

H.J. Dinnen Homeward Mail from India China and the East page 1033 21st October 1884
H.J. Dinnen Homeward Mail from India China and the East page 1033 21st October 1884, by eurasian_david

Let us know when you receive the certificates!