Li Sui Chi Cup2.JPG

Sun, 07/23/2017 - 06:45

I wonder if anyone else has a cup of this type or similar. I posted a query about it five years ago and tngan kindly answered that it was probably a typical gift in thanks for a service. It's difficult to get a good photo of the inscription because of the curved surface and the reflection, but the bordered shield contains the normal monogram CEW of my grandfather, Charles Edward Warren.  The inscription reads "To C. E. WARREN ESQ./From LI SUI CHI/HONG KONG/1903" I still don't know who Li Sui Chi was, nor what the cup was given for. I have found several similar cups made by  Wang Hing & Company of Canton, who specialised in Export Silver, but didn't set up in Hong Kong until the 1920s. These cups were often given as trophies for various sports, but, if so, the inscription ought to specify that. In 1903 Charles Warren was still operating out of Wyndham Street in the fairly early days of C.E. Warren & Co., but already included on the list of Authorised Architects. Perhaps this cup was a gesture of gratitude for some feat of building or of modern plumbing.

Jill

Date picture taken
15 Jul 2017
Author(s)
Shows person / people

Comments

Hi Jill,

Li Sui Chi may be 李 瑞枝 in Chinese if we use Cantonese pinyin.  Guess what, if I use 瑞枝 as firstname and 李 as lastname for a lookup at www.myheritage.com, it actually come up with some entries which fit the time frame and may actualy be the same person, completed with the man himself, a wife and two concubines.  The entries also mentioned they have a few decendents.  But I am not a member there thus couldn't dig any deeper.

The Mr Li I found there was born in 1869.  If you are a member there, maybe you should take a look.

T

 

 

Many thanks for this information T. What a coincidence that the characters of your name are the same as Li Sui Chi's. I have found a couple of people with this name living at the right date. I wasn't sure how common a name it was. No clue, however, about the reason for giving the cup. In Western culture it's a rather strange to give a cup of this type as a thank you present. If anyone else has inherited a cup like this inscribed by a single individual, I'd be happy to hear about it.

Jill

Hi Jill,

I believe Li Sui Chi is a very common day even today. Li\Lee is one of the major clans too.   I have seen this name associated to both male and female photos in a Google look-up.

The look-up results at MyHeritage is sort of confusing.  Maybe you really need their family tree builder to have a better view.  Anyway, the issue with the entries there all started with 瑞枝 李.  It would be even more confused if you do not read Chinese.

I believe only these entries are related.  You could stop just as you reach the entry with Korean script.  Please pay attention to the year of birth.  You should be able to distinquish different persons by that.  The entry showing 瑞枝 李 夫人 should probably mean the wife and the other two with (born 黃) &  (born 張) were probably for the concubines.

Thanks & Best Regards,

T

 

瑞枝 李
 
FamilySearch Family Tree
Birth: Circa 1869 - Place
Wife: Name of wife
Children: 繼寬 李 and names of 2 more children
 
瑞枝 李
 
FamilySearch Family Tree
Birth: Circa 1869 - Place
Wife: Name of wife
Children: 北寬 李 and names of 2 more children
 
瑞枝 李
 
FamilySearch Family Tree
Birth: Circa 1869 - Place
Parents: Names of both parents
 
瑞枝 李
 
FamilySearch Family Tree
Birth: Circa 1869 - Place
Parents: Names of both parents
 
瑞枝 李 (born 黃)
 
FamilySearch Family Tree
Birth: Circa 1896 - Place
Death: Place
Husband: Name of husband
 
瑞枝 李 (born 張)
 
FamilySearch Family Tree
Birth: Circa 1906 - Place
Death: Place
Husband: Name of husband
 
瑞枝 李 夫人
 
FamilySearch Family Tree
Birth: Circa 1873 - Place
Husband: Name of husband
Children: 繼寬 李 and names of 2 more children
 
瑞枝 李 夫人
 
FamilySearch Family Tree
Birth: Circa 1873 - Place
Husband: Name of husband
Children: 北寬 李 and names of 2 more children

Hi Jill,

The basic style of the cup\chalice appeared to be western.  But the decorating dragons (I counted three heads unless there is another head at the back) are of Chinese styled.  Body shaped like a snake but they could fly (in legend) none the less.  They don't spit fire like their western cousins.  Chinese Dragons are water gods.  They control rain\rain storms and the water at high seas.

T

Hi T,

Additional thanks for all the information about how to search for the mystery cup giver, Li Sui Chi - I think I may delegate this job to an acquaintance who knows Chinese - thank you also for the background about Chinese dragons, which decorate all the silver items from Hong Kong preserved by my family. My guess is that silver cups of the type in my photo were sold by  Wang Hing and Company with shields left blank for whatever inscription the purchaser wanted to put there. The ones I've seen for sale by antique dealers are mainly sports trophies. Perhaps someone will come forward with a personalized gift cup like my grandfather's in due course.

Jill

 

Do you still have this Wang Hing cup?

I ask, becausse I research and write on Chinese silverwares and have written several papers on Wang Hing & Company. If you still have the cup, I'd like to know if you have an image of the silver marks so that I can identify who actually made it. Also, what is the size of the item?

Hope to hear from you

 

Kind regards

I do still have the cup, but I have put my family stuff away into a not very accessible "safe place". I will look for it and come back to you. In the meantime, do you have references or links to your articles? I should be interested to read them. Where are the silver marks likely to be placed? To my eye, the base and the stem don't look to be the same quality as the cup itself.

Thanks for replying.

Here are 2 links that may be helpful for you:  

http://chinese-export-silver.com.gridhosted.co.uk/meta-museum-archive/meta-museum-wang-hing-discovering-true-identity-genius-%e5%ae%8f%e8%88%88-%e7%99%bc%e7%8f%be%e4%b8%80%e5%80%8b%e5%a4%a9%e6%89%8d%e7%9a%84%e7%9c%9f%e6%ad%a3%e8%ba%ab%e4%bb%bd/

http://chinese-export-silver.com.gridhosted.co.uk/wang-hingtiffany-co/

 

This is my website: http://chinese-export-silver.com

You'll probably find the marks either on the front bottom of the base of the cup or underneath the base, but there's no "usual" when it comes to Chinese silver!

 

Regards

 

Adrien

 

 

Thank you for these links, Adrien. I'm sure everyone else on Gwulo will find your articles and your website as fascinating to read as I have. It's especially interesting to learn the role of humour in the designs invented by Chinese silversmiths. I don't know if there was any relationship between Zetland House, the Wang Hing emporium and Zetland Hall, owned by masonic lodges, but it would make sense for the lodges with their demand for silverware for grand dinners to be good customers for Wang Hing.

The original Zetland House was purchased by the owning Lo family; it stood on the corner of an alley known then as Ice House Street. But in the early 1930s, the Lo family decided to redevelop the site and they built what was to become "Wang Hing House"; an office block that had the Wang Hing store at ground level and a hotel on the upper floors which my understanding is the Lo family simply leased the floors to a hotel operator. When the Japanese bombarded Hong Kong in 1942, Wang Hing House took a direct hit, so the building and Wang Hing + Company ceased to function. The Lo family got themselves out of Hong Kong but much of the archival documents of the company were lost. Attached is an image of the building taken in 1941:                                 

http://chinese-export-silver.com.gridhosted.co.uk/6RTea

 

 

 

I've photographed the only maker's mark that I can find on the cup presented to my grandfather by Li Su Chi in 1903. It seems to read "KL". Does that mean it was made in Kuala Lumpur? I wouldn't say that all parts of the cup were silver. The stem seems to be a cheaper alloy.

The cup is 7.5 inches high and 3.2 inches in diameter. I have found some sugar tongs that do seem to have the Wang Hing company imprint on them and a maker's mark in Chinese characters. I will try to upload these.

Silvermark LiSuiChi cup.jpg
Silvermark LiSuiChi cup.jpg, by Jill